Real Madrid

If so, probably for a single season, and that's if Ancelotti doesn't end up here first.

That should be an interesting encounter.

^Didn't we concur on that ages ago mate? I'm kicking myself right now. My brother made more than £100,000 placing a £10k bet on Bayern early on in the season. I'm an idiot for not joining him :(

I remember after beating Untied most of the Madrid fans were talking about La Decima but you and I were the ones warning them about this Bayern side. Even if we got pass Dortmund (which we should have) we wouldn't have beaten this Bayern side.

Don't be fooled by the way Bayern played today. The only reason Dortmund pushed them so hard is because they know Bayern inside out. I'm sure if it was any other team in that final we would see a completely different score line.

^I fully concur with that mate.

In a final, anything can happen. Let's not forget the resilient Liverpool side that went up against a quality Milan side who were 3-0 up and boasted the greatest player on planet Earth at the time.

So no, I still think we would have had a chance against Bayern, especially in a one-off match.

Finally somebody who thinks we can beat Bayer,thank you White!

I don't see Bayern as the strongest team in Europe...Bayern did not dominate Dortmund and had a last minute goal also Dortmund barely made it through..Not like Barcelona season Bayern didn't make a flashy victory so it doesn't make them the strongest in my opinion.

^There is a huge difference between that Milan team and this Bayern team though. That Milan team didn't have a scary streak like this Bayern team had. Less than 10 goals conceded over the course of half a season, add to that, their spirit that took out Barca 7-0 on aggregate (not something any other team could manage). And their hunger for victory. Especially with our team's weak mentality this season, or should I say complacent, we would never stand a chance against them. Actually, Dortmund are as close to a team that could take them out this season.

I know this Bayern team is different, but the concept still remains the same - finals are unpredictable. And Barcelona play a style that would give Bayern's manager wet dreams at night! It's a style they prefer to play against, much like we are starting to actually.

Our mentality against tougher opposition shouldn't be questioned DerBomba. We've pulled through against the best of the best this season, and apart from playing in Germany, we've done really well to stand our ground and even threaten our opponents in large portions of matches. This match was at Wembley and not Germany.

But I do agree that Dortmund are the best fit team to challenge Bayern. That much we can both agree with.

I don't know if we would have been able to beat Bayern if we were there instead of Dortmund but one thing is for sure... If you think this was an exciting final, with Real Madrid there you would have died of a heart attack.

Why am I always finding my self going against Madrid? ...

Anyways... it works in both ways @White. Saying we can beat Bayern is true but actually doing it on the field is a different thing. This season we have been nothing but pathetic. We came second in the group stages, got out classed by Dortmund in both games in the group stages, almost lost out to Gala, got a REALLY lucky red card that pretty much won us the game and got humiliated by Dortmund 4-1.

Saying IF and BUT will always work but in football the games are decided on the field.

But I'm being more cautious in what I say. I'm choosing to say we would have a chance against them, but you and a few select others are making it out as if it would be certain we would lose.

There's a difference. I'm choosing to be be less definitive.

And we've done well against tougher opposition this season. That 4-1 in Germany might not have been brought up had we gotten that final goal in the dying stages of the game.

There's an old saying that Defence wins titles. That to me, has been proven by this Bayern team, and Mourinho's Inter in 2010. Our defence is not up to scruff, and even with all our attacking prowess, we may or may not score against such a defensively stable team. For what it's worth, Neuer proved me wrong today, I've always been skeptical of him, but he showed me that he has what it takes. So, break Bayern's defence and we still have to get past Neuer. Add to that our crumbling defence against the hunger of the Bayern players. I just can't see it tbh.

Very well deserved he did his job, now he requires the others to pull there weight to, and just imagine.

CR7 !

Do they actually hand out an award for this? I don't remember Messi getting any award after being the top goal scorer in the CL for 4 years in a row.

Yes, I think they give a small accolade in honor of scoring the most goals. Messi probably received his as well.

I think you and I were the only ones that knew this day would happen. I'm happy for those fans and players after losing so many finals.

I just hope Pep doesn't ruin all of this. I have a feeling he will sell Ribery, Robben and Gomez and bring that boring tiki taka crap to Bayern. They need to keep these set of players and keep playing the same way.

^To be fair, tika-taka might work with this Bayern team. My only question is, given the physical prowess of this Bayern team, could he increase the speed of the tika taka? One major problem I had with Pep's tika taka is that the speed is way too slow. Watch Tito's version, it's quicker and way more palatable. I only hope Pep will speed things up.

Knowing Pep, I wouldn't be surprised if he plays the same tempo has he is so used to. These Bayern players are way too good to play that way. They can play the Tiki Taka style but to a certain extent but they can't sit in their own half and pass the ball around like he did at Barcelona.

Why should Bayern change anything? Why fix that which is not broken? If anybody has noticed, this Bayern style is a mixture of Real Madrid and Barcelona. You could probably say this is the most complete squad in the last decade.

Remember the weakness in Tiki-Taka, a style we are becoming fond of exploiting - it will lessen Bayern's strength. Pep should just fine tune the squad and continue where Jupp left off and only think of alterations when a new weakness is exploited.

Pep has this way of playing and he NEVER changes it. I remember games where they were losing but you would still see Barcelona passing the ball around in that mid field. The Bayern board need to make it clear that they can not stop playing this way.

^I agree, but every manager has a signature formation and tactic. Pep's is tika taka. There is a noticeable aspect behind every manager's ideology, and I have to say Pep's style is a cautious one which is largely similar to Hecknyes. The difference though is that Pep will focus on retaining possession.

Think about it. This Bayern team is scary enough as it is. Add to that possession. I don't think it'd be too far fetched to suggest it'd be some sort of upgrade. The only question then is the speed.

That will come down to Uli and how he comes to view Pep, I think. I personally dislike Pep's style. It may be effective, but clubs with styles like Borussia Dortmund and Real Madrid will find it easier to play against Tiki-Taka once they become accustomed to it.

And it's really difficult to stay awake. I remember the Spanish squad of 2008 - one of my favorite squads of all time - and how beautifully they played. Then VdB adopted an approach that was similar to Pep's at Barcelona - my goodness how my interest in Spain decreased drastically.

My point is, his style not only bores me, but I feel it is an unnecessary shift in Bayern's approach. Perhaps I should wait until Pep actually manages a few matches before making a judgement though.

@DerBomba

Bayern already play a possession game. They are also culprits in unnecessary square passes at times as well. I don't think altering Bayern's approach to an even more possession oriented game will benefit them. That would force them to alter their formation and play more centrally which actually weakens their offensive prowess.

Tika taka's greatest boring aspect is the speed at which the ball is played. Ironically, it's the tactic's ultimate weapon. To tire out opposing players while conserving the energy of your team.

Problem is, a speed boost would provide alot more entertainment. Tika taka is basically a large combination of 1-2s. Arsenal's version was pretty good, the reason though is that it was quick, and was therefore attractive.

I do agree with you that it's an unnecessary shift. And we should reserve judgment on Pep for now.

But don't confuse Tiki-Taka for the quick passing football Dortmund, Bayern, and Real Madrid play. Part of what makes Tiki-Taka what it is, in my opinion, is it's usefulness in slowing down the game, fatiguing the opposition, and capitalizing on poor conentration (due to mental/physical fatigue). If you'd have a style that incorporated quick passing and intense pressuring, that would be something slightly different to Tiki-Taka - that would be the style Real Madrid, Bayern, and Dortmund try to play.

It's possession oriented, but not exactly, and it focuses on trying to get the ball as quickly as possible into goal. It's much like Tiki-Taka, but without the excessive square passes (which form part of the reason why it's so painfully slow).

Actually, Madrid's and Bayern's version are extensions of the original tika taka. I will argue that even Barca are not exactly using tika taka. The original tika taka had no individual brilliant player. Spain are the only ones who are using the original version, and we can see why it's bad.

We pretty much have the same views on tika taka, but to be fair, almost every successful team these days, to some extent uses tika taka. Save for Dortmund. Dortmund is the one and only team to keep to counter attacks, the tactic we used 2 years ago. That is the antithesis to tika taka, not parking the bus. Parking the bus works too, don't get me wrong. But tika taka's fatal flaw is counter attacks with massive speed.

Counter attacks though are a variation of parking the bus, but parking the bus alone though gets you no where. You need to hit your opponents on the break to get a chance.

The tika taka you speak of is the original version which I have to agree, is a worthless tactic in terms of entertainment value. But I don't think Pep will try to slow things down unnecessarily, especially since Bayern themselves play a variant of the original version.

So many variations!

I think I can agree with you for the most part. :)

It's also a style that tends to neutralize the lack of physical traits in your own team,(Barcelona) and boost the qualities of the skills in your team, hence why Pep's Barcelona could afford to have average-weak players and still win against physical fast paced teams.
I'm not saying that Barcelona is full of skillful fragile midgets and that they only faced super cavemen.

But Tiki-Taka totally shuts down the physical advantages the opposition may have.
When the team playing Tiki-Taka loses possesion it quickly tracks it back most of the time succeding winning the ball back because the other team is lacking confidence after not having the ball for many minutes therefor forcing bad decisions on many players.
This way of playing benefits from possesiion while the ball is in play thats why it's better to stop the match as little as possible for them.

Do you guys remember the 2010/2011 games we had agaisnt Barcelona? Their frustration didn't come just because of fouls, it was because we were constantly shutting down the tempo of the game, we were counter-attacking not only in the game, but mentally, we cornered them to make bad decisions pressuring in a different way just like Tiki-Taka pressured us.

Genius work from Mourinho right there.


It's a master plan really, I dislike it because it's boring I understand why people call it the beautiful way of playing because its beautiful to watch team spirit and sharing the ball with your team, but Tiki-taka exaggerates this to an extremely boring, slow-paced tricky football.

@Vanido

That part about player psychologically being affected by Tiki-Taka is interesting. I can't believe I didn't realize that. It's part of the reason why it is successful against most clubs, and quite effective, but what it gives for efficiency and effectiveness, it takes from entertainment, at least for me.

@Vanido

That's an astute observation. Basically the original blue prints are as you've put it. But Barca's version is slightly different. It relies more on individual brilliance than what the original tika taka was meant to do. As I recall the original tika taka had very average players. Barca on the other hand has a brilliant Busquets and Iniesta. To make matters worse, they have a Messi.

Barca relies on Busquets to intercept, reducing the foul count from challenges. Add to that Iniesta to carve opportunities and Messi to cause confusion in the opponent's defence. It's hardly the original tika taka for me. The blue prints for the original tika taka is such that you can have 11 fat old men on the pitch and you could still beat any of the best teams in the world.

One of the reasons Barcelona's current approach is masked from it's weakness (or so it used to be) is because of the brilliance and game changing character of Messi. This style might not have received the praise it continues to do so if it weren't for Messi conjuring an illusion.

I guess you have to give credit to Messi for making Barcelona get out of tricky situations.

^You also have to give Busquets some credit though. I see Barca crumbling without Busquets. His vision is outstanding. And his ability to intercept leaves me speechless at times.

And you say nothing about Lewandowski's stamp on Boateng?

That stamp was a horrible,it deserved a card. but that doesn't clear all of those dives and faking injuries by Bayern.

Dortmund weren't saints either, true, Bayern players dived a fair bit, but face it, every team dives these days. I can't even name a single team who doesn't dive.

Totally agree with @DerBomba. Why are people complaining about diving when we have divers in our team? Every team has 1 or 2 divers and we have to accept it...

Because almost every Bayern's player has dived today...

To be fair, it's not something you usually see with Germans.