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Premiership Sat, 16th Dec 2017
Manchester City
4 - 1
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I'm going to say it now before I have it slapped in my face later, but that fourth goal is the epitome of a defeated team. Dier misses it, lloris lets it roll through his legs and Sterling walks it into the goal.

Aurier should have come on at half time, and Sissoko with him for either Winks or Dembele. I understand the plan with having Trippier there, but for every opportunity there was for Trippier to do something, there were 3 times as many counters. Winks cannot handle the pressure, and Dembele has not been 100% and we must accept now that he never will be. Again pochs biggest flaw is failure to change his tactics or gameplan quick enough.

Pep brought on Jesus for Aguero at 55mins because he realised straight away that we were going to try get back into the game, and Poch couldn't make any proper personnel changes to try swing it?! Lamela came on and created our best chance of the whole match instantly; Winks could have made a simple pass to Kane and we could have gotten back into the game at 2-1.

As good as City are, I did not expect this game to be winnable, but it just pisses me off so damn much not seeing Poch make the calls that I feel he should be making.

I agree completely. This was always gonna be a riot with Sane against Trippier. Winks for the second game in a row wasn't positive enough.

Poch really needs to think again, as it seems at times that the only strategy he knows is fitness and pressing. We should have approached this game like we did Madrid away.

Disappointing performance all round the pitch.
This is the absolute killer stat:

Ederson completed more passes (26) than both Christian Eriksen (24) and Dele Alli (17).

Almost all of those passes were straight up to Sane/Sterling/Jesus to attack our defence.
So lads (or just North and Fayjay it seems haha) what would be your team tomorrow?

I'm gonna go:

----------------------------------Lloris------------------------------------
-Aurier--------------Dier--------------------Vertonghen-------------Rose-
------------------Dembele---------------Winks---------------------------
-Son----------------------------Eriksen----------------------------Dele--
----------------------------------Kane------------------------------------

Weirdly very hopeful about this one. Gonna go 3-1 Spurs! COYS!
This is the formation I would go for; I really hope he doesn't revert back to Davies and Trippier though.
I like that you're weirdly very hopefuly, because I'm shitting my pants over here.
Such a shame that we do not have a full squad for this game. Need Wanyama/Toby/Sanchez and I would be a 100x more hopeful than I'm feeling right now.
The team is what I predicted but with Trippier playing instead of Aurier.

10 points from our last 4 games vs City! COYS!
Good man management from Poch. I would imagine if Rose didn't get to start this game, he would be a definite goner in January. We got a good balance of wingbacks. Let's hope for a good game from everyone involved.
I'm flat out so no time to be on here at the moment. Will have to record the City game and watch it on Sunday evening. But in brief, that 4-3-3 formation vs Brighton didn't work for us. It would have helped had we had Wanyama instead of Sissoko but as it was we became too flat, too careful and too slow. Dier put in one of the best shifts and recorded the highest number of passes by a Spurs player so far this season. He never knows from week to week which role will be required of him but just gets on with it and does the job. Our full back situations is still nowhere near being sorted. Rose is soooo rusty and just a shadow of what he was, primarily due to a lack of game time. Aurier still hasn't settled into life in the Premier League, because he never gets consistent playing time. It would be cruel to play them at City, even though they are best equipped to tackle City's attacking threats and, just as important, to help us pinning them back with a threat on the flanks. And regarding Trippier, stats must be taken for what they are. It has become a myth that he is this amazing crosser who wins us games. When Walker left, some pundits got this agenda about lifting Trippier up on a pedestal. This season he is recorded with 4 assists in the Premier League. Not a single one of them was anything like a quality cross. The two vs Huddersfield was first a header to Kane, who then ran half the pitch and scored, then a throw-in to Kane who ran across the defense and shot from outside the box. The one vs Everton, Kane simply came out on the flank himself, took the ball from Trippier and scored directly from the flank. The one vs Liverpool Trippier played the ball over the defense, and again Kane did the rest. I could also mention the draw vs West Brom. Kane and Alli had not received any proper service. Our goal came after Dele Alli came out on the right flank, took the ball from Trippier and put in a pinpoint cross to Kane's shoelaces. I could go on but it will have to wait until another time.

I really hope we don't concede four or five goals at City. Shock horror!
I think the 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 is the best formation we can play, especially with Alde injured and Sanchez suspended. It didn't work because, like you say, Sissoko was playing instead of Dembele (to rest the big Belgian for Saturday) and because Winks for some reason had his most negative passing game in a Spurs shirt!

Don't think Dier deserves that much credit but we've said all we need to on that.

Rose is rusty but Aurier had a great game. I think these two need to start vs City despite Trips and Davies being rested. We need them against the pace of Sterling, Sane and Walker.

What your saying about Trippier is just nonsense.
9 assists in the last 21 games.
An assist every 113 minutes last season (only Fabregas had a better ratio than that!!)
2.2 key passes per game last season (only Eriksen provided more in lily-white)
Chance created every 62 minutes last season, walker created every 77 minutes.
54 appearances for Spurs, 17 assists.

Have a look at his performance vs Real Madrid:

https://www.youtube.com/watchhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFFseyCoiCE&t=6sv=QFFseyCoiCE&t=6s

For his crossing, I don't think its wise to look at just his assists. You've watched the matches this season and last, surely you've seen that every game (apart from the ones the whole team has played terribly) he whips in at least 2 crosses per game that has the crowd oohing and aahing, wishing there was someone who could have got on the end of it.

I'm not his biggest fan defensively, just like I'm not Dier's biggest fan defensively. But his passing and crossing is widely recognised as one of the best in the Premier League for a full-back:

When talking about de Bruyne, Carragher said: “There’s no better crosser of a ball in the Premier League, perhaps with the exception of Kieran Trippier at Tottenham"

We need to give both Trippier and Davies credit when they deserve it, Even though like I said, I believe the Aurier and Rose should start vs City.






Got to agree that it's not the formation, it's the personnel. It was just the same old problem of playing too slow against a team that sat back.

"Don't think Dier deserves that much credit but we've said all we need to on that." Obviously there's no point noting down a match in which Dier makes no mistakes because it doesn't adhere to the image of him being overrated.

You're also backtracking with your Trippier comments, at first you said he was "winning us games with his crosses", now we have to look beyond assists, and how many "ohhh" crosses he can make each game. - We are all in agreement with the fact that Tripper can cross a ball - at no point has anyone denied that. But what North has been contesting is how highly you have been rating his crossing, when everything else Tripper does is basically s**t.
"It has become a myth that he is this amazing crosser who wins us games" - the end of the sentence is key.

It's like saying Lukaku was winning Everton games with the amount of goals he scored in his last season, but if you took away ALL of Lukakus goals for Everton that season; their position in the table or their total points tally wouldn't have changed. His goals literally didn't win Everton any games or points; true fact.
Obviously I am taking the piss here with the comparison a little bit because arguably Lukaku still effects games without scoring; he is a beast, he puts defenders on their toes and creates a different dynamic for the whole team.
You compared Trippier to De Bruyne who is a brilliant crosser, but he also runs/tackles/scores. He starts every single game and is regarded as one of the best midfielders in Europe right now. Fabregas is only good for assisting, he doesn't offer anything else and that's why he's doesn't start every game and is only played when the game suits him to be played. Trippier is supposed to be a defender, a wingback, where are his take-ons? His interceptions and tackles and everything else.

Last season, our team was on fire. We had 3 at the back, and with the brilliant movements of our forwards, it allowed our wingbacks plenty of space. But instead of making forward runs, Trippier takes the space and uses his crossing/passing to make the best of what he's got in his locker. But you look at the games where he isn't afforded acres of space, then he becomes ineffective and absolutely infuriating. Constant back-passes and jockeying his man instead of making the interceptions/tackles etc.
0.6 take-ons per game is the perfect stat to epitomise what North is talking about; I mean come on! HALF a take on ?! Every team will know that there is no point marking Trippier because he won't make runs. The difference with Walker/Aurier is that he would be a threat, he will make runs to the by-line and take a defender or two with him.
Hehe ok

"Obviously there's no point noting down a match in which Dier makes no mistakes because it doesn't adhere to the image of him being overrated"

In fact I did write down his mistakes.
0.20: Inaccurate long pass
6.40: terrible pass
0.28: terrible long pass that led to counter
0.35: Lost his man Duffy for a free header 6 yards out. Should have been a goal
48: Free header in opp box, fluffs it
0.78: Terrible pass

Definitely wasn't his worst game, but other than Eriksen and maybe Sissoko he made the most mistakes that game, and from a CB that's not great.

I'm not backtracking on anything. I already stated all the facts on Trippier, I just tried to make it more relatable by mentioning the amount of crosses than no-one gets on (last season's Dele would have finished a lot of them).

"Everything else Trippier does is basically s**t" - nuff' said

An example is Davies. Rose had a rusty game against Brighton. His crossing was awful. If Davies had been playing, you know he would have put in some devilish crosses, inviting people to attack them. I don't rate a lot of Davies' general play but I'd never say that everything he does is basically s**t.

Your paragraph about Lukaku isn't really a comparison worth mentioning. "His goals literally didn't win Everton any games or points; true fact". Ok so if he gets two goals and the opposition scores two goals, then he hasn't won the game. That's obvious but it has no reflection on his quality. You mentioned clutching straws earlier...

Anyway, I wasn't disputing Trippier's sub-spurs-standard all round game. I just believe that he's in the top 3 crossers of the ball in the Prem, and that he's a more intelligent player than you think. His defensive play leaves a lot to be desired but I never disputed that.

Anyway, we'll never change each others mind on this. I said I'll reserve my judgement on Dier and watch him over the next few games to see if he changes my mind. Just feel he's escaped criticism this season
Just like to point out re- Lukaku. 2-2 would mean Lukaku gains a point, but the points don't change. So basically Lukaku always scoring the goals that comes after the game is won already - this relating to Trippier in the sense that he can never "win games with his crossing" because his amazing crossing comes from games which are already winnable.

Your comparison of Rose and Davies: I rate Davies over Trippier as an overall wingback. So I agree with you that there can be an argument that Davies could have made more of a difference on the pitch instead of an out of form Rose. Because an in form Davies; as we saw in the beginning of the season, was scoring goals and creating chances. The competition between Rose and Davies is much closer than Trippier to Aurier.

Re- Dier; I don't know if you've read my post below but I've made an argument for that already about how you are interpreting these so called "mistakes" which are the supposed basis of why he is overrated. Again your noted "mistakes" in this game all relate to Passing; which North already established, Dier made the most passes on the pitch in any game of the season so far. So what you're saying is Dier is overrated because he doesn't get 100% passing accuracy. You didn't mention Winks, who was possibly our weakest player that game. Misplaced passes, dispossessed as he was changing his mind mid-pass which led to a counter. You admit not wanting to give Dier too much credit, but say Aurier had one of his best games when he made several defensive errors that game. One of which should have lead to a goal. So it all winds back to my point being that we can always pick out individual mistakes for a lot of players, and Dier has escaped criticism because he deserves to. More than most accepts he is nowhere near a finished product, but never is he to be considered overrated, which is what sparked this whole debate.

Fair play man, although if you look above you'll see I was pretty critical of Winks.

I suppose I've seen a lot of articles about Dier being the only captain choice for England and in the summer about how United offered 50m for him, which is probs why I deemed him over-rated.

Anyway, lets move on about both. We've both argued our case well but I think we need to judge at the end of season.

I'm starting a post at the top Fayjay me old chum, wondering what your formation and team would be for tomorrow
Well that was horrifically boring. Still, back into 4th which will be a great boost for our players.

Lets bring those City machines to a halt! Did it last year, lets do it again. COYS!!!
Another very slow team performance, Winks in particular having a poor game. IMO Sissoko needs to move further forward, and Eriksen has to drop deep to start getting some confidence on the ball again and to influence play.

Rose with a poor first half. Dont understand why people assume he should always start over Davies when he doesn't deserve it. Aurier has been very strong, think he should start vs City.

Overall, a bit of fluke that we needed. Crowd has been dead, have only heard 2 'come on you spurs' and nothing else for the whole match. Need some encouragement for the lads!!!
Less than 50% capacity on a weeknight is bound to mean a dry atmosphere.

Rose is rusty and the reason why everyone assumes he should start is because he lacks gametime and in his prime he is arguably the leagues best lb. Davies is a solid performer and always will be, but lacks that athletic edge which Rose has.

It was great to have Lamela back, but taking Alli out meant we lost a runner into the box. We almost had too many creative players without enough movement up front. Son had a few jinking runs but not enough. Kane was left isolated and in the second half seemed to get annoyed. Team chem will build and hopefully movements will become more fluid.

As they always say, the top teams find a way to win no matter how shitty the performance. Bring on City!
Match night lads! COYS!!!
Can Kane beat Shearer's record?
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/42295925
What do UEFA have against us and Chelsea this season man!
We got this!

Allegri has some bad memories of the last time he faced Spurs in European competition as head of AC Milan.

A repeat performance of our summer friendly would be perfect!

Exactly man, to be honest its just fantastic that we're playing these massive teams. Doesn't seem long ago we were looking up where teams were from in the Europa League
Taking on Juventus will be great! Meanwhile Arsenal have a Europa League trip to Östersund where the February temp is likely to be between 20-30C BELOW!
+1
Team today:

-------------------------------LLoris---------------------------------
-Trippier------------Dier-----------------Verty---------------Davies--
--------------------Dembele--------Winks----------------------------
-Son--------------------------Dele-------------------------Eriksen---
-----------------------------Kane-------------------------------------

Almost guaranteed win with Trippier, Dembele and Son starting. COYS!
Lap it up mate, you must be sitting there with a raging boner right now after that performance.

Good to see Dier was solid once again as well. Kane on form would have bagged 6/7 goals today but he kept the score modest.
And Trippier was absolutely bloody awful again...
Haha great game! I'm happy to see us back to 4-2-3-1 as well, against lesser teams anyway.

Trippier was pretty bad today, but Aurier hasn't been great recently either. How about young Walker-peters anyone?

Dier is not solid. I don't mind him in defence, but I would still start Sanchez over him when the young lad's back from suspension.

Have a look at the goals conceded this season and almost all of them are Dier's fault. His positioning is terrible, he loses his man almost constantly on corners and he is the most unadventurous passer in our team. Just focus on him in the game against Brighton and you'll see what I mean.

"Have a look at the goals conceded this season and almost all of them are Dier's fault." - pretty bold statement which I've already argued against before right? I know for sure I've already made the point of when Dier had to step into CB from midfield from the Real madrid game and played a blinder. Or the West Brom game where Sanchez gave the only goal away? Or any other Sanchez game where Toby hasn't played, he has made mistakes. Or the West Ham game in Carabao cup where Sanchez and Foyth got absolutely destroyed by Andy Caroll?

You are focusing too much on Dier's mistakes and letting it overrule your judgement on how good/solid he actually is.

What did he do wrong in this stoke game then? Why was he not solid? I would love some examples of what makes Dier such an overrated player compared to other underperforming/out of form players we have currently?

"and he is the most unadventurous passer in our team" - I think you need to re-assess who you think Dier is, and what he does for the team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSzsQZo_7u0
go to 5.50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGW9_HaNK4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcqgIysVQcE
go to 1.14, 4.43, 6.53, 8.05 (turns back), 8.23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byOx1ljGyec
Watford handball late on, Watford goal doesn't even jump

He makes the occasional good slide tackle which makes us think he's amazing but he loses his man so regularly, doesn't jump anywhere near as much or as high as he should, is one of the slowest passers in our team and also one of the most negative.

I know he's not our first choice but he and Dele dont get the criticism he deserves while Trippier gets all the slack when he's winning us games with his crosses.

I could post a lot more examples too but it got a bit boring

Paddy, it's utter nonsense that Trippier is winning us games with his crosses. Before the Watford game his crossing accuracy in the PL stood at 12/59. (I think we scored on ONE of them.) Mid way through the 2nd half vs Watford his crossing accuracy was 0/8, I didn't see the end stat after that game, he may have attempted one more. And his stats would certainly not have improved after the Stoke game. He also constantly lets the team down with his lacklustre defending, where everybody else (incl DIER and SANCHEZ) have to sort it out for him.
After 40 years of following Spurs, I believe Trippier is the most annoying player I've seen in a Spurs shirt.
+1
@PaddySpurs, like I said, focusing too much on all of Dier's worst traits. I could do the same with every defender in the league and find videos of all their mistakes. I called you out on the bold sweeping statement that Dier's been at fault for every goal. When quite clearly it's been proven now that it's been a collective effort.
Please also remember. Sanchez has ended up getting a stupid red card now when at the beginning of the season he was being praised as being the complete defender we needed. All of a sudden with defensive injuries and a midfield reshuffle, he's starting to feel the pressure also and make mistakes.

It's funny you mention that Alli and Dier don't get the criticism they deserve, because if you've been watching the football shows lately, all Pundits have been berating Alli's form, whilst simultaneously NOT blaming our poor form on Dier being an overrated player.

"is one of the slowest passers in our team and also one of the most negative."- are you kidding? After Toby, Dier makes the most long range upfield passes in the team. But again, this is such a moot point. Does Sanchez have a better passing range than Dier? Is he more forward playing than Dier? Don't be silly. Dier plays the ball just fine. Clutching straws with this argument.

+1
@North

Trippier recorded an assist every 116 minutes last season, compared to Aurier at an assist every 610 minutes.

In his last 21 games Trippier has 9 assists. How is he not winning us games with his crosses?! These have nearly all been beautifully weighted crosses or deft through balls. Of course I accept he's not our best defender, but we've had high marks set with Walker and Rose in recent years.

How you can say he's the most annoying player when he literally wins games for us with his crosses is completely beyond me. As Carragher says:

“By moving five or 10 yards to the right he’s [De Bruyne] in a crossing position and there’s no better crosser of a ball in the Premier League, perhaps with the exception of Kieran Trippier at Tottenham,"

@FayJay

Of course I'm concentrating on his worst traits! I'm criticising him. I accept he's saved us on multiple occasions with his last ditch slide tackles.

You asked me to provide examples of him being at fault for a lot of goals and I provided the most recent examples!

Anyway, I'll withhold my judgement. I'll watch him closer than usual in the next few games but please do the same.



I think I watch Dier close enough and I didnt ask you to provide any examples; I have always said from the very beginning that Dier is by no means perfect; i called you out on the fact that you think Dier has conceded all our goals which is ridiculous and that he is the most overrated Spurs player, also ridiculous.

Re- Trippier: No-one denies that he is a brilliant crosser of the ball or his stats of 9 assists from 21games, but if I recall correctly, didnt he get 3 of those in a 5-0 game or something? Point is, Of those 21games itl be interesting to see how many of them were actually won by Trippier's crosses.
It's simply not as wonderful as you think, Paddy. See my post further up.
PS. I'd love to have watched a Spurs game with you, to give a running commentary of my problems with Trippier.
FayJay you said:

"I would love some examples of what makes Dier such an overrated player compared to other underperforming/out of form players we have currently"

So yes, you did ask me to provide examples, and I did. I could provide more from the last few seasons as well.

And I didn't say I think Dier has conceded all our goals, that would be ridiculous. I said he has been at fault for almost all of them.
I believe firmly that no defender has made more mistakes for us this season than Dier!
I asked for examples of what makes Dier such an overrated player and you gave me some questionable clips to try prove your point. So let me elaborate some more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcqgIysVQcE
go to 1.14, 4.43, 6.53, 8.05 (turns back), 8.23

None of those timescales were significant at all! Even the goal that was scored at 4.43 there is a whole team defending there, and Vertonghen is also there. Yet it is Dier's fault for being outjumped? Don't forget the goal was offside, and Sanchez made the foul for the freekick (which wasn't even a foul so that can't be held against anyone except the ref).

6.53: Please explain yourself here, Sanchez is jockeying Alexi Sanchez and allows him to play a through ball, which Dier allows an overhit through ball to roll into Lloris'hands. Where's the mistake?

8.05 (turns back); A shot is taken, Dier swivels to ensure he uses his body and not handball it. Did you want him to make a big ass Star jump? I fail to see how this is a mistake.

8.23: so just completely ignore the fact that Trippier and Sanchez got taken out of the game?

This is what I meant by you are concentrating way too much on all the negatives of Dier.

I've given you examples of actual errors leading to goals from Sanchez and Foyth from memory, because they stood out. I implore you to think of similar examples where Dier is clearly at fault for a goal or makes the mistakes leading up to the goal seeing as you firmly believe no defender has made more mistakes this season.





1.14 - His pass blocked and then let Lac cut to his strong foot.

4.43 - Its his man. Jan and Davies have Kolasinac and Mertesacker. Dier doesn't hardly jump. He's the tallest man in our team for god sake!

6.53 - he loses Ozil and follows the ball. If that pass was better, it would have been a goal.

8.05 - Maybe I was looking for one up on that one ;)

8.23 - They didn't get take out the game! Trippier was on Kolasinac and Sanchez went across to Ozil! Come on man!!! Dier over-committed and got done in the box.

The positive news is that we win our very tough Champions League group with the highest points tally. It's also remarkable that all 5 English teams make it through to the knock-outs, 4 of them as group winners.

5 English teams, 3 Spanish, 1 French, 1 German, 2 Italian, 1 Portuguese, 1 Swiss, 1 Turkish and 1 Ukrainian.
I hope English teams can prove them all wrong. This season gives us a great chance.
I think that's a fair reflection of the quality of the leagues.
Looking at the quality across Europe there's no reason an English team can't win the competition. You look at Real, juve, and barca and they're not looking the part this season. Biggest obstacles are bayern and psg, but in no image are they head and shoulders above the English teams.


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Form
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GD
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D
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Pl
Pos
52
44
12
56
0
1
17
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1
41
27
12
39
3
2
13
18
2
38
18
14
32
4
2
12
18
3
34
18
20
38
2
7
9
18
4
33
11
20
31
5
3
10
18
5
32
4
12
16
4
5
9
18
6
31
13
18
31
5
4
9
18
7
26
1
26
27
6
5
7
18
8
22
-6
33
27
8
4
6
18
9
22
-8
29
21
7
4
6
17
10
21
-14
30
16
9
3
6
18
11
18
-7
24
17
8
6
4
18
12
18
-9
23
14
8
6
4
18
13
17
-13
28
15
9
5
4
18
14
17
-15
32
17
9
5
4
18
15
16
-9
24
15
10
4
4
18
16
16
-20
39
19
10
4
4
18
17
15
-11
27
16
11
3
4
18
18
14
-11
24
13
8
8
2
18
19
12
-13
22
9
11
3
3
17
20
C/L  C/L Qualifying  UEFA Cup  Relegation 

UEFA Champions League Table

Form
PTS
GD
GA
GF
L
D
W
Pl
Pos
16
11
4
15
0
1
5
6
1
13
10
7
17
1
1
4
6
2
2
-6
13
7
4
2
0
6
3
2
-15
17
2
4
2
0
6
4

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