Germany

Not really traitors if they're going to a really good team to become the best players in the world... it's kind of expected really in the footballing world for players to follow the money as their skill level improves.

By your logic then, should Messi go back to Argentina and Ronaldo to Portugal? you'd have some pretty weak leagues without the mixing up of countries in domestic clubs in different nations.

Hmm, you've got a good point there. I was just a little concerned that by playing with part of the Spanish defence week in and out that they were giving too much about their play style away.

Every player has a particular way of playing, but that can count for little if the manager chooses to deploy them differently. Ozil is not the same player for Real Madrid as he is for the Germany national team. Ozil becomes a lot more unpredictable and alive under Low. Khedira on the other hand isn't a player you'd mark so find his weakness wouldn't really do much. He's not the type of player to threaten opposition as he is the type to make it easier for the rest of his squad to play.

But you should be happy that Ozil and Khedira are gaining experience and learning how to play against a side like Barcelona, which makes up the majority of the Spanish national. You could say this would provide Germany with an advantage too.

hummels for mertesacker, badstuber for boateng, schweinsteiger for gundogan

Klose / Gomez for Götze, who wastes so many chances.

@Fabius. Agree with you, except I'd put in Gündogan for Khedira.

----------------Neuer---------------
Lahm-Hummels-Badstuber-Schmelzer
----------Gündogan--Basti------------
Müller-----------Özil---------Reus
-------------------Götze------------

World Cup 2014, here we come!

----------------Neuer---------------
Lahm-Hummels-Badstuber-Schmelzer
----------Khedira--Schweinsteiger------------
Müller-----------Özil---------Reus
-----------------Klose------------

Bench: Adler, Boateng, Gündogan, Götze, Gomez

I'd prefer this one.

Khedira is a must. He's like our Patrick Vieira.

For Gundogan and Schweinstieger to play, you need a 'Khedira' type player. He makes it easier for the more creative players to play by doing all the dirty work. In other words, he provides Ozil, Schweinsteiger/Gundogan more freedom and less responsibility. No, Khedira is a must, a definitive starter. But I'm sure Gundogan will take over Schweinteiger's position. With this more 'possession' oriented football, involving quick passes and interchanging positions, Jogi will likely draw on the Dortmund players more often.

I don't understand why so many people of this forum think that Khedira is the holding midfielder and Schweini is the creative counterpart. It's been quite the opposite for a while now. Schweini holds back and worries about the defensive balance first while while Khedira charges up more often.

I think a Gündogan/Schweini combination would be more effective, because Gündogan is much more creative and comfortable with the ball than Khedira and his tackling is sublime as well. Don't get me wrong, Khedira is a fantastic player but ever since leaving for Madrid he has neglected his defensive responsibilities more and more to the point that Schweinsteiger had to take on the more defensive part of our DM (which he actually does very well). Khedira has gotten much better offensively, certainly, but not comparable to Gündogan abilites.

I can tell you why Löw won't play Gündogan in the first 11 if Schweinsteiger and Khedira are available:

1) Khedira is a much more experienced player than Gündogan
2) Khedira is a Real Madrid starter which gives him another deal of prestige than Gündogan has

Nevertheless I believe that Gündogan will be our future when Schweinsteiger retires.

I think if anything, Jogi has been the one giving Khedira more freedom to roam up the field. Still, one shouldn't overlook what Khedira brings to the national team. His experience, his mechanical understanding of how a team should function, and his ability to make things easier on the rest of the midfield make him a definitive starter under Jogi. I'm confident though that Jogi will have more trouble deciding between Gundogan and Schweinsteiger.

I don't like the idea that Germany is trying to copy Spain by first converting to possession based football and now playing with a false 9. Germany's 2010 style remains the best, what's the point of holding on to the ball like the Spanish do, and make it so damn boring?

Boring?! Do you not enjoy high class technical football in close quarters? There's nothing more exciting to watch than a successful tika-taka play. It only gets boring when the opposition plays ala Chelsea and parks the bus. Then it's like pulling teeth. But with the player material we have now on offense, it just makes sense to adapt this highly successful playing style.

About Khedira... I definitely didn't want to talk down his class. He's a fantastic player, but I think Gündogan has way more potential and will only get the needed experience by actually playing frequently for the national team. You see what this kid can do once he get's the confidence. He's a really special player at the beginning of a huge career, and as great as Khedira is, I truly believe that Gündogan is the better choice. Khedira and Gündogan will be our future, but right now Schweini still has too much class and authority to be pushed out of the team. That's why I'm rocking at Khedira's throne, only because Gündogan is just too good not to start and Schweini isn't going anywhere for the next couple years.

^It's too slow, tika taka is way too slow for my liking. Germany's 2010 counter attacks were breath taking and majestic, patient build up is just not my cup of tea.

Khedira has evolved from a DM in the purest of sense to a DM who defends from above. Watch the 2nd Kazakhstan game and watch the final third where he wins the ball a number of times leading to attacks. He's practically a DM who can possibly score, and he isn't neglecting his defensive duties either. Note that Schweinsteiger has reached the 30s, and probably has about 1 or 2 good tournaments left in him. Gündogan could step in thereafter.

On the other hand, Kroos is someone I don't think you could leave out. If anything he should be a starter. I'm almost in favour of dropping either of Ozil, Muller or Reus in favour of Kroos, I'd go as far as Schweinsteiger, Gündogan or Khedira just to fit Kroos in. That boy has everything I look for in a midfielder.

^ i'm with you all the way.

Oh boy, we couldn't disagree more there. But that's the beauty of it I guess, eh? ;)

Sure, Khedira won many balls high up in the attacking third that led to many attacking plays, but that's exactly what the more offensive player in the double 6 should be doing. Gündogan would and did the exact same thing only to be able to offer a little more creative play and better ball control in a tiki-taka type of playing style. But Khedira definitely does negelect his defensive responsibilities at times which can get really frustrating. Just watch for it next time. There is no way that a team like Kazakhstan should get even close to scoring a goal against Germany. Yet they had multiple great chances on the counter and that was hugely because of the lack of a true DM. With Schweini that wouldn't have happened. I try too look at a players overall game and not just his bright moments, and to me Khedira doesn't hold the defensive balance as well as Schwein and can't offer as much offensively as Gündogan does. Does he have brilliant moments? Definitely! But a Schweini/Gündogan partnership would be more effective in my opinion.

And Kroos? Seriously? You haven't seen too many of his games outside of highlights I'm assuming? Great player with good understanding of the game and an absolutely fantastic shot, but to want to replace him with any of the players you listed is ludicrous. He's kind of an awkward player that a team needs to be built around for him to really shine. He's too slow and inconsistent in his passing to be a truly outstanding attacking midfielder. And he's too weak and loses the ball too easily to really take on the DM/CM position. Plus, he just doesn't fit the curent playing style of the team. He does have an unbelievable shot and on a good day he'll hit long rangers like few others, but on an bad day he takes every opportunity he gets to take those shots and blasts them into no-mans land completely ruining the flow of the attack.

I hope I don't sound like I'm attacking you. I can understand why you feel the way you do and respect that, I just completely disagree.

@LastGraspWinner

I was with you in every point you made (though the German variation of possession football is a lot more tolerable than the Spanish one), until you said you'd drop Ozil (as one of your options) to start Kroos.

If there is one player that isn't going to get dropped, that likely player is Ozil. Germany become slightly one-dimensional without him. Plus there is some serious love Jogi has for Ozil.

Hmm, I don't have much time, so I'll address my point on Kroos rather briefly. Perhaps an overkill to say drop the forward line attackers for Kroos, but if you think about it, it makes sense to some extent. Kroos is not the fastest of players admittedly, but some of the very best were not fast at all, White as a Madrid fan should know all about Zidane. Kroos has vision, just seems a little below par this season, but last season or was it the season before? When he covered for Schweinsteiger, it was as if he was better than Schweinsteiger. His vision is something else, I dare say it's greater than Ozil's, though his ability to make those passes is way inferior to Ozil's. Just needs to work on his passing ability, I think, but even without his passing ability, he probably should be able to replace either Reus or Muller at the moment. The other part about Kroos is his defensive ability from above which would fit the current possession based style.

Though if it's counter attacks we're talking about, then keep the line up as it is.

@LastGraspWinner

I think Zidane is the greatest to have ever played! It's not fair to use him as an example because the difference in magnitude between those two is just too high, at least in my opinion.

I do see your point in Kroos though. If I remember correctly, he bossed the midfield in the Allianz against us (Real Madrid) so I'm well aware of his quality. But if he is unable to make the passes, it is difficult to judge whether he truly has better vision than Ozil. Vision, in a very shallow/general sense is best observed through execution of passes. And even when you consider other aspects that are tied to vision, Ozil trumps EVERYONE on the Germans squad. Maybe that's why Jogi always plays him for 90 minutes friendly/competitive. So at the moment I stick by Ozil and his Avatar Eyes. :)

Perhaps Kroos can play a more deeper role? Like when he did for Bayern last season? I think to fit Kroos in Jogi would have to alter the formation and make it even more similar to Spain's to accommodate for the drop in speed and intensity that would result from Kroos's inclusion and another player's exclusion. It's really hard to fit everyone in. The Germans are spoiled with quality players. They have the largest depth in my opinion.

@White
Oh but I think it's fair! Kroos has the potential, but in a very different capacity. He doesn't have Zizou's god-like dribbling ability, but he can probably make up for it with his natural vision. Don't know why, but that boy has an aura when I watch him. It's the same type of aura emitted from the best midfield generals I've ever seen. It's more of a feeling tbh, but it reminds me of what Ballack, Gerrard, Lampard had and what Pirlo, Schweinsteiger and Alonso has.

He needs to improve on his passing to keep up with his vision, but until he does that, it's still Ozil above him. How shall I explain this. Take Madrid for example. Ozil has what I call short distance vision. Alonso has what I call long distance vision. Ozil can pass in a tight spot, Alonso can do the long balls. It's a different kind of vision altogether, but Kroos has the long distance vision. Just that his passing...

You're probably right that Kroos has to play deeper, but I thought if Low persists with possession football using Kroos would be beneficial. but with counterattacks, speed is the key, so using Kroos would be a downfall.

Really sad to see Draxler get subbed off. I hope he's okay. This was such a moment for him.

Every touch Ozil makes is like a little moment of beauty in itself. His awareness of where the rest of his German men run is unreal. Another 2 assists meaning that's he's been involved in 14 of Germany's last 14 WC Qualifying match goals.

Gotze had a pretty good game. Anyone think that his role as a false nine will continue?

It will continue at least for today as Gomez will be not in the team tonight.