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Which Is The Bigger Loss, Rvp Or Ibrahimovic?
Sam (Juventus) 2 years ago
Following this week's latest betrayal in the annual Arsenal gut-wrenching summer departures series (Arsenal should have a reality series by now!), I started thinking if this summer has seen a more devastating blow to a team in terms of production, to one team.

However, Ibra leaving Milan seems almost as devastating, maybe more (?)- Ibra had won the Scudetto for every season he was in Italy with the exception of last year where a majestic Juventus went without loss in the league. Ibra carried every team he was on to the title and last season was probably his best yet, when he finished with 28 goals (out of the 74 that Milan scored) and 6 assists.

Arsenal had made contingency plans with the signings of Giroud and Podolski (although as a Gooner I still feel we need more) but I don't recall a Premiership season where one player carried a team the way RvP did last season. Milan are still shopping around, and are looking at Dzeko, Matri, Pazzini among others....

So who is the bigger loss? Which team will feel the impact of the loss of their star player MORE?
BoundryBlueMad (Oldham Athletic) 2 years ago
RVP he is a still a great player but Ibrahimovic is no longer a good player he is old always get's injured and he will proberly retire soon
MarquinhoACM (AC Milan) 2 years ago
@BoundryBlueMad

Can you tell me how Ibrahimovic is no longer a good player? I mean, last season he finished as top goal scorer of Serie A, something he's achieved twice in that league. On the other hand, van Persie gets one injury-free season and all of a sudden he's a great player? What about the 6 seasons before? And speaking of injuries, you don't know Ibrahimovic's history AT ALL. From 2009 to 2011, he never missed a game through injury. His most recent injury in early 2011 lasted only 2 weeks.... Do you want me to go through van Persie's injuries? Well here they are and their duration:

10/11 | 27. 02. 2011 | 08. 03. 2011 | Twisted knee
10/11 | 28. 08. 2010 | 08. 11. 2010 | Malleolar injury
09/10 | 14. 11. 2009 | 18. 04. 2010 |?
08/09 | 23. 04. 2009 | 05. 05. 2009 | Groin strain
08/09 | 27. 03. 2009 | 14. 04. 2009 | Tear in the abductor muscle
08/09 | 08. 12. 2008 | 12. 12. 2008 |?
08/09 | 30. 08. 2008 | 06. 09. 2008 | Malleolar injury
07/08 | 02. 04. 2008 | 08. 04. 2008 |?
07/08 | 11. 01. 2008 | 09. 03. 2008 |?

Compared that to Ibrahimovic's:

11/12 | 12. 09. 2011 | 27. 09. 2011 |?
09/10 | 28. 07. 2009 | 10. 08. 2009 | Fractured Hand
07/08 | 29. 03. 2008 | 30. 04. 2008 | Knee Problems
07/08 | 23. 02. 2008 | 08. 03. 2008 | Knee Problems

Short, eh? You also mentioned that Ibrahimovic is old. They are 1 year and 10 months apart in age, with Ibrahimovic being older. Not that different really...
Juno (AC Milan) 2 years ago
Without a doubt. Ibrahimovic
Otownballer (Arsenal) 2 years ago
Strange comparison, but intriguing. Milan fans will likely say the loss of Ibrahimovic is more damaging, Arsenal fans Van Persie. I think it's important to establish criteria: whether the player was replaced, whether he was inspirational and his loss affects morale, how much money the team recouped, whether the player leaving arrived at a direct rival, the player's age, etc. Etc. There have to be other factors I'm not considering.

Milan definitely got more money for Ibrahimovic. PSG are not a direct rival in Serie A. Milan seem to have plenty of striking alternatives. Ibrahimovic is older than RVP (though definitely less injury prone).

I think the loss of RVP is more damaging to Arsenal. RVP could hypothetically score the winning goal for United against Arsenal in a title deciding 6-pointer. It's not likely, but possible, and extremely damaging. Ibra will never hurt Milan domestically and I think that tips the scales
Sam (Juventus) 2 years ago
You make some valid points regarding criteria for comparison, and I guess that is part of the debate. There are many things that one can factor in, and based on those same factors, conclusions can swing either way. I do agree that the loss of RvP to United rather than to an outside league can be definitive in any game between the pair and between their other rivals- it actually reminds me of the situation, funnily enough involving Ibra, when Juve lost him to Inter and then watched Inter win the league x amount of years consecutively.... The anguish a similar result would cause Gooner Nation would be indescribable.

Indeed, Milan did get some decent return from Ibra's sale, but most of that went into settling debt and very little has been invested in players. They still haven't replaced him, and you know that things are dire when even Cassano is looking for pastures new.... A potential player-swap with Inter involving Cassano and Pazzini has been mooted, but that doesn't replace Ibra- it replaces Cassano, right?

MarquinhoACM (AC Milan) 2 years ago
I would have to disagree with the hypothetical criteria, mainly because there are so many scenarios that can happen and comparing the two strikers should really stick to the present problems. What if Milan were to make it to the Champions League final and play PSG? And we lost 2-1 to an Ibrahimovic brace (with Silva assisting both)? Wouldn't that be as crucial, if not more considering winning the champions league is bigger than winning a league? Hypothetically is not a great way to judge which team had the bigger loss.

I want to analyze this further, as I might be biased more to Milan (to be fair my best friend is a huge Arsenal fan and I feel like I know enough that I'm basically an Arsenal fan now), but I need to go study for a test tomorrow and really felt like saying that *hypothetical* situations isn't a good way to judge this.

And Sam, I've told you why bringing in Pazzo isn't a replacement for Cassano on the Juventus forum.... I guess you needed to hear an opinion from a non-Milanista.... :/
Otownballer (Arsenal) 2 years ago
Well, MarquinhoACM, I'd say it's absolutely acceptable to use hypothetical criteria since it's a hypothetical and subjective comparison to begin with, yes? How else would you suggest we approach the question?

Also, I see the words "hypothetical" and then "hypocritical" used later in paragraph 2. Important difference in meaning there. Good luck on your test
MarquinhoACM (AC Milan) 2 years ago
Sorry meant hypothetical there, was typing super fast and letting autocorrect pick up whatever it wanted without me checking over it. Going to edit that right away....

And rather using hypothetical criteria, where anything is possible and arguments for both sides soon can become invalid, you have to look into the present, what the team has done since them, etc. Etc. See more in my main post
MarquinhoACM (AC Milan) 2 years ago
Continuing on why hypothetical criteria is not an acceptable way to judge this:

- PSG won the league and cup double with Ibrahimovic top scorer in both. Manchester United finished second to MCY /CHE /ARS /TOT whoever, therefore Ibrahimovic was more of a loss to Milan.

- Vice versa, United won the league and cup double while PSG didn't win a single trophy. Van Persie was a bigger loss.

- Manchester United lose to Arsenal in both meetings in the season. Ibrahimovic looks like the bigger loss. Vice versa, United wins both against Arsenal, van Persie seems like the bigger loss.

- PSG and Milan meet up in the champions league elimination round. After two legs, PSG moves on thanks to Ibrahimovic. Arsenal and Manchester United never met in the champions league. Bigger loss to Milan. Vice versa, United beats Arsenal over two legs thanks to van Persie, Milan and PSG never met. Bigger loss to Arsenal.

Point is, even if Milan sold Ibrahimovic to Inter or Juventus or, hell, Sampdoria or Chievo, it doesn't affect how Milan should have replaced him. If United were to win the league with van Persie, even if it went down to a single point, it wouldn't mean Arsenal had the bigger loss because there was 37 other games that the team had to change its fate, not just down to one sole game. That would have only been possible if both teams went undefeated, without a tie, but that's already outside of the realm of possibility
RealAnimalz (Real Madrid) 2 years ago
Ibra, because he's awesome
Peteko 2 years ago
Both have taken bigger bets than the clubs they left and the biggest loss could be theirs. It is harder for me to understand what Ibra is looking for. This is his fourth club since 2009.

But to answer your question Milan will suffer more from this. There is no way that RVP can pull two great seasons in a row
Sam (Juventus) 2 years ago
I like your argument Peteko- Ibra has a track record of sustained excellence, whereas RvP has one dominant season, so, essentially, it would be easier for Arsenal to cope with his loss because they have been dependent on him for a shorter period of time. Ibra was a guaranteed 20-goals per season; RvP was guaranteed 6 months on the trainer's bench every year until last season...
MarquinhoACM (AC Milan) 2 years ago
I think without a doubt losing Ibrahimovic is a tougher loss for Milan to deal with than Arsenal losing van Persie. But in order to look at it deeper, the most direct way is to see what each player was able to accomplish for the club and what the club has done to replace them properly.

Milan: Milan sold Ibrahimovic to PSG valued around 21€ million. They previously bought him from Barcelona for 24€ million. In 2011-2012 season, Ibrahimovic scored a career-high 28 goals and 6 assists in Serie A, starting 32 times (0 substitutions). He also totaled 5 goals and 1 assist in the Champions League, as well as scoring a goal in the Coppa Italia. After Milan sold Ibrahimovic, they have brought in Pazzini as a replacement, worth 12€ million (Cassano worth 5€ million + 7€ million in cash). Pazzini last season started 11 times for inter + 11 substitutions and scored 5 goals in the Serie A. Ze Eduardo (free loan with an option to purchase 50% of rights for 4€ million) has also been brought in for Milan, who last season started 3 times (6 substitutions) and scored 0 goals.

Arsenal: Arsenal sold van Persie to Manchester United for 25. 5€ million. They previously bought him from Feyenoord for 4. 5€ million. In 2011-2012, van Persie scored career-high 30 goals and 9 assists in the EPL, starting 37 times (1 substitution). He also scored 5 goals in the Champions League, as well as scoring 2 in the FA Cup. Arsenal have brought in Giroud (12€ million) as a replacement for van Persie, who scored 21 goals in 36 appearances. They have also brought in Podolski (12€ million) who scored 18 goals in 29 appearances.

Now, basing by those facts stated, Milan paid 12€million for Pazzini and Ze Eduardo, who are expected to make up for Ibrahimovic's 28 goals in the league last season (together they made 5 goals). Arsenal, on the other hand, paid 24€ million for Giroud and Podolski, who are expected to make up for van Persie's 30 goals in the league last season (combined they made 39 goals). By looking at it, Arsenal used their money from van Persie for, what people would rate, really good replacements, one proven in a tough league and on the international stage, while the other coming in on a high after a surprise on the top goalscorer list in Ligue 1. Milan used half the money from Ibrahimovic to bring in a striker who has had a great 1/2 season with Inter, followed by a miserable season afterwards, and Ze Eduardo, who is virtually useless really.

Milan made a loss of -3€ million by investing on Ibrahimovic in 2 seasons while Arsenal made a profit of 21€ million by investing on van Persie for 9(?) seasons. On the monetary basis, Arsenal got the better deal than Milan, which also in turn were able to use to bring in solid replacements, while Milan couldn't use all the money from Ibrahimovic due to debt issues.

Another reason as to why Ibrahimovic is a bigger loss is the one stated above me by Peteko, which I was going to state. Ibrahimovic has always performed, even when he wasn't wanted at Barcelona, he still managed 16 goals and 9 assists, while van Persie has only had this one spectacular season, there is no guarantee that it can be repeated at Manchester United. We can look at it to the present, Ibrahimovic already scored 2 goals in the league for PSG; van Persie hasn't earned a starting berth yet.

All in all, Ibrahimovic is a bigger loss to Milan than van Persie is to Arsenal. We can speak about hypothetical situations, like van Persie scoring a game winning goal against Arsenal to make them lose 3 vital points, but the hypothetical situations' realm of possibility is never-ending and doesn't prove anything because, well, it's hypothetical
Peteko 2 years ago
Excellent post MarquinhoACM.
Now I got curious about how did Ibra leave? I have not followed this transfer story. Did he force the issue? Did Milan refuse to pay and try to hold on to him? What happened?
MarquinhoACM (AC Milan) 2 years ago
Thanks, I love writing long posts tbh haha most people won't read them though because of how long they are.

Ibra was forced out by Milan. Ibra was happy at Milan and wanted to know the project of Milan, but insisted that he'll stay regardless. However, Milan couldn't pass up the opportunity to sell him for 21€ million, and from a business point, it made sense. If we kept him, then next season he would be on his last year of his contract, and selling a 31 year-old striker on his last year would be a huge loss in profit. Extending his contract would cost Milan too much money that they didn't have either, so selling him this window without taking a huge loss is the only thing that made sense. From a business stand point, it was a must and good deal, but from the competitive aspect, it's disastrous. Again, Ibra didn't want to leave, same with Silva, which makes it heartbreaking for me
AnthonysOpinion (Atlético Madrid) 1 year ago
I learned more than I was willing to learn about these respective players and clubs. I also learned that I will try not to debate MarquinhoACM either. I will need too many windows open on my computer to fact-check.

My simplistic analysis is: Ibrahimovic's volley goal in Euro2012 was awesome; RVP's volley goal (first goal with Manchester United) was spectacular.

I say it's a wash
MarquinhoACM (AC Milan) 1 year ago
Haha thanks Anthony, when I truly believe in something, I will fight to the end until I win
Juvenik21 (Juventus) 2 years ago
Definitly Ibra.
They lost their top scorer and on top of that they lost Cassano, and made no deals to replace them.
Arsenal on the other hand got Podolski and Giroud to replace RVP
Manutdwarrior (Manchester United) 2 years ago
And look what happened to Arsenal. Out of 2 games they only got 2 points now that a major in their part. Biggest lost: Van Persie
MarquinhoACM (AC Milan) 2 years ago
Ok....

1) That's a miserable, terrible argument to base on on this discussion.

2) If you want to play by that argument, then fine. Milan lost to a team that just got promoted luckily through the play-off system (the team finished 6th in Serie be last season). THAT IS ZERO points. Your argument debunked.

Please find a better defending argument, that one is really, really lame and can only be depended on once the season is over.
Juno (AC Milan) 2 years ago
Wholeheartedly agreed
Calskii (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Right, ibra is a good player in his own way. RVP is a good player but of a whole different context. YOu can't compare them, they're completley different players!
REDDevil98 (Manchester United) 1 year ago
How the hell are they're completely different players? Both are striker, both are the main source of their respective teams of getting goals
MancYank (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Hmmm. Tough one. I would say that RVP was worse, only because he was sold to a direct rival. In terms of contribution to their prior teams, I would say that both players were the most important to their sides. I'm actually starting to feel bad for Wenger; Arsenal is becoming the top feeder team for the super-clubs
Rakeen18 (Manchester United) 1 year ago
Rvp is the greatest loss    Rvp was a legendary for arsenal
MarquinhoACM (AC Milan) 1 year ago
Lol
Moe66 (Manchester City) 1 year ago
Ibra without a doubt, Arsenal found replaced
ArnabFORZAMILAN (AC Milan) 1 year ago
ZLATAN IBRAHIMOVIC ANY DAY!
Georgio (Bayern München) 1 year ago
I'd say Ibra. Because arsenal were able to fill the gap with very high quality players and I believe Giroud alone when he gels in will be able to make up the goals
Rudd (Manchester United) 1 year ago
I can't be bothered saying a long and boring story like the rest of you lot, so I'll just simply say, IBRA!



   
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