Forums / The Stands: Intelligent Footy Debate
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To All Liverpool Supporters
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
The fact is fellow Liverpool supporters we all want the same thing.... Liverpool to be the best footballing side as they where years ago.

If your are a Raffa supporter or not it does not matter what matters is keeping the club afloat. Another FACT is in this Day and age of football a club must win on a consistent basis.... 2005 is long gone, last years 2 and place is fast becoming a distant memory you are as good as your last Cup/ league championship.... Ect.... Ect.

Statistics are just figures based upon a constant changing dynamic so they don't really account for much at the end of the day. Players stop playing due to injury.... They move to other clubs ect

What matters is performance and a consistent wining team.... This is only achieved by solid management and motivation and planning years in advance.

The question is who is responsible for this.... Well I would say the Manager.... It is the Manager that sets the tone for the players (attack defensive ect....) it is he who has the technical set-up.... It is he who motivates.... It is he who get the best out of the players, and it is the Manager who plans for the succession of the club.

Don`t get me wrong I would love Raffa to be a success, the question is how long must Liverpool supporters wait?

All the Liverpool supporters I have spoke to are somewhat confused as to why week on week practically Lucas get`s his game and why is it the case that he rotates from a wining side to a more defensive set- up.... I could go on....

It is all well and good to get behind and support the Manager and quot YNWA, but in the same token Liverpool CAN NOT afford to be out of the champions league in these times of economic unrest.

I have said this before but this 4 th spot should not be the goal of LiverpoolFC.... We MUST start to win the Prem first, year on year and the rest will take care of it`s self.

One word to the wise.... The best form of defence is attack wins build confidence as should a manager build the confidence of players.

Top players want to win it is in their nature.... I just hope we can hold on to them.
SergioRamos (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Great post.

I agree to all the critism that has been thrown on rafa, but yet I hope he is our manager next season. I believe he is speacial and only blinded by stupid descisions. I do agree, he should be sacked. But I would hate to see it happening.

DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Hi Sergio,

No one, especially me wants to see anyone sacked.... But if you was to relate what has happened to the real world.... Would you or I still be in a Management Role?

You are judged and rewarded based upon your team.... Department performance and if you as a Manager need help to make decisions then you must do so for the good of the company.... After all you have a responsibility to the company to make the right decision and to keep the company profitable.




ScooterHayes (Chelsea) 4 years ago
I agree that Liverpool need to start trying to approach the Premiere League crown as the best bet of getting back to the former dominance that Liverpool knew. It strikes of all the great sides that have gone down all across the football spectrum. Leeds and Juventus being probably the biggest ones in my opinion. I hope Liverpool doesn't come to that, because it is greater than either of those sides.

It may mean rebuilding parts of the squad, sacking Rafa, or any number of other factors. But Liverpool cannot expect to leap back to instant prominence, because they have not proved they could do it this season. It is a radical thing to expect even a Championship, or Carling or FA cup next year unless an equally radical change is made. It may involve some players coming in and going out, Rafa leaving, etc. But I feel the team thinks they have lost their luster, and have a lowered self confidence that only change can fix.

Not even the best professionals can combat that
Soccergal293 (Barcelona) 4 years ago
Great Post!
Blueskiesahead (Chelsea) 4 years ago
Finally a sensible liverpool fan. I have been saying for 2 seasons now that you need to drop rafa. Like I have said in earlier posts, teams need managers that improve the team, not keep it at a constant status quo, because by doing that, you hurt the team. Rafa is by no means a bad manager. He has not made liverpool go into deline but he has kept a relative status quo from when he took over. Unfortunatly what makes the business of managing a football club so hard these days is that every team is constantly improving, and so if you want your club to do well, you can't just make it good, and not worry about making improvements because "the club already has great players. " improvement is always necessary and rafa is just not doing that.

I have to admit though, the owners have to take much of the owness as well. They haven't quite supported the club finacially very well in recent years. However can you blame them? When they have given rafa money, he's wasted it. He has made a few good signings, but my goodness has he made ALOT of bad ones. If I were them I wouldnt be letting him waste my money either.

Rafa is good, but just not good enough for liverpool. Liverpool fans, players, and coaches should never be happy with a 3rd place finish. That should be seen as a disappointment. But right now they're only aiming for 4th? To have your standards so low is not good for a team who wants to be able to say they are one of the big boys. Well to be one of the big boys, you need to play like the big boys, and to do that, you need a winning mentality. Believing that you will get 4th place may be a winning mentality for the likes of their merseyside neighbors, or villa, or city. But not for a club like liverpool. I cannot believe how long this clubs fans have put up with it to be honest
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Liverpool have the biggest squad in the prem…. What does this say to you? What is says to me is Raffa is trying to adapt a netto style approach to building a side.

What do I mean by netto style.... Well if you look at the side today, there are a lot of low quality players in the side which has the occasional luxury item thrown in just to give you the feeling that you have something to look forward to.

I know that managing a team is all about the balance…but that balance has to be of a similar standard. As we have seen this season when the quality items are not on the shelf you have nothing to look forward to.

This is one of the key problems we face at the moment, coupled with a dogged defensive management style.

What sums it up for me is when you have to stand there in the KOP shouting Attack … Attack… Attack, what is all that about…? All I know it is not the Liverpool way
Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Last season he was a whisker away from winning the entire league. He's qualified for the Champions league every year since taking over, apart from this one (likely). He's even won it once, along with other silverware.

He is crippled financially. That's why he has to buy several "average" players instead of the huge 80 million pound superstars.

One bad season and everyone is calling for his head. Imagine if he did get fired, and the next manager absolutely destroyed the team. We'd take ten years to get back to the level we're at
Riggs (Manchester United) 4 years ago
That one bad season has been a really bad one, and Rafa has made many many weird decisions with regards to player selections and substitutions. I don't think things are going to right themselves either. All teams must constantly be improving in order to compete, if something doesn't change next year will probably worse
Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Well, any angle you look at it, he was as close to winning the title last year as any Liverpool manager has been in absolutely ages. Torres has been chronically injured, Gerrard hardly shows up to any game even though he's on the pitch, Glenn Johnson started brightly, scoring goals and creating chances but since his horrible injury he hasn't really crossed the halfway line.

We have to remember this is the same Rafa with the same talent (apart from Alonso) who less than a year ago was fighting for everything. If you sacked a manager for a bad season, Ferguson would have been sacked any of the first five years he was in charge
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
“If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing. ” Shankly
Riggs (Manchester United) 4 years ago
We should really stop comparing teams as a means of justification for someones actions. Just because it happened at United doesn't make it alright anywhere else. Maybe the right move at that time would have been to sack fergie. Hindsight is 20/20 though. Also, I think the scenarios are at least a little different. Ferguson started with s**t and turned it into something. Rafa started with something and has turned it into s**t. (well, the organization as a whole has devolved on all levels. Ownership to the players. Even the fanbase is in a shambles, not a chant to be heard some games.) Ferguson became a manager in an entirely different era. He made a record signing for 2 million pounds. That money then would be worth only about 4 to 5 million now. A record signing now though is 80 million. The economy of football is much different now.

Rafa did have 40 million to spend in the summer and he got aquilani, kygiakos, and johnson(his best signing.) Hardly bang for his buck. Many teams got much for their money. Krancjar was a steal for spurs. City did well I think in tevez and barry.

Not that I'm complainging about liverpool in ruins or anything. And then they pull out an amazing performance today
Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
They've been playing absolutely great for about a month. The only reason United got all three points was a controversial penalty decision. If it had been a full strength, confident team all season like last season, no doubt we'd be up around the top again.

I really can't agree with the biased nonsense that Liverpool is 'in ruins'
Riggs (Manchester United) 4 years ago
I define 'in ruins' as financial turmoil, grim future prospects(warnock was the last success from liverpool's academy, hardly a superstar), no champions league football, no trophies, being shredded by every pundit from here to kingdom come, and a very frustrated fanbase (as this among other topics suggests.) What separates liverpool from the teams below them but a few points on the table and very feminine striker? I don't think its good enough for a club as proud as liverpool. The premiere league is going to be even better next season. Will liverpool?
Azeal (Liverpool) 4 years ago
If you are the first you are first, if you come second after a long struggling era - that's improvement.

I believe Rafa has lifted the standard so high in the recent years, that only the old faithful remember the position we were previously in. Manchester united fans telling us about management? .... I don't know where to begin.

First, Fergusson wasn't sacked back in the days during the hard time re-arranging squad with abysmal results he produced.
Second, should we even trust our rival?
Third, for all the joy Rafa brought us I think he deserve another chance
Fourth, I blame the owner
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Ant you are spot on with your comments.... Like I say I think Rafa is a good Manager.... And yes Ferguson was also close to the chop at the beginning. But let`s look at the facts....

FOR Rafa
Torres
No investment
Champions league, FA, SupperCup, Com Shield


Against Rafa
No real replacement/ partner striker
Has the biggest squad and spent the most
2006. Last time we won something, 4 year drought

We could go on all day with the pros and con`s of Rafa.... My main point is this other teams can manage a win with a week side and 90 % of the time sets-up a defensive stand.... You must admit Ant, that we have faded fast.... 4 years no silverware.... You have got to ask your self the question, is that good enough for Liverpool?

Remember these words? “If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing. ” Shankly

Like I said before it is the manager that makes the team and not so much the owners.... YES THEY ARE CRAP AND should BE SENT packing but, Rafa has had the means but not made the right decisions....

The Alonso Gate saga does Rafa the most damage in my book.... Robbie Keane, Andrea Dossena and Albert Riera, all ad insult to injury in my book not forgetting lucas.

Now the club is strapped for cash.... Where do you see the replacement for Ste G and Jamie who are not getting any younger.

All things said the economics of football these days are mad.... I long for the day when you can`t buy a wining team you have to hand mold a team and develop raw individual talent.... The question is has Rafa got what it takes.... Has he got what Shankly Had?





Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Well, to answer your last question first, no, Rafa is no way a Shankly. The problem is, managers like that are incredibly hard to nurture these days. I'd say that perhaps Alex Fereguson is one of the last of that kind of manager (perhaps Martin O'Neill, a few others), that comes from an ordinary British background, grassroots football, and drives a team to succeed through force of personality, shrewdness and good old determination.

The reason I say that kind of manager doesn't really exist any more is that the simple fact is, a lot of Premier league managers are bought in like star strikers, as a quick fix to an ailing team. If they manage for half a season and do slightly worse than expected (Mark Hughes, or any of the five managers Chelsea have had in three years) they get turfed out and a new celebrity manager installed.

We will surely have to agree to disagree on the topic of Rafa getting the boot, but look at what the man produces with a full strength squad. Beautiful, flowing football with dozens of goal chances. What we're seeing now is the Liverpool we all hope for, and - yes - expect, but no excuses for a bad season. It's been terrible. Should Rafa get the chop, and a new throwaway manager be installed for six months, who just buys in players he is familiar with? Who knows. I think no.

If Rafa gets the chop, I would be sick in my stomach, dreading the name of the next manager. All I can hope is that its someone like Dalgleish for a few years, or someone like Martin O'Neill.

DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Ant, me old china plate, again your words are indeed wise words.

Liverpool always looks after the manager it`s always been the Liverpool way.... (With the exception of Graeme Souness say no more)

If we can think back to the days.... When the REDS where Strong everything came from within the Club.... Now I know the game has changed.... As to have styles but to quote your words

" Alex Ferguson is one of the last of that kind of manager (perhaps Martin O'Neill, a few others)" is spot on 100%"

That is why we need King Kenny to take the rains.... He would be the inspiration we need to make the reds a force to be considered. He knows Footy inside out he has worked with the best and been manged by the best.... And he has the respect of the players.... And other managers

I think we need to get back to the in house system that made Liverpool the best.... That special time in Football bred a certain personality which has been lost. That persona only a few have and Kenny Dalglish has that in abundance I would LOVE kenny to be given the time Rafa has been give to make us shine again
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
   
Technique (Liverpool) 4 years ago
We'd be fighting for second at the least if Alonso was still in the squad, regardless of any other issue.

Of course there are a lot of other things that have put the team in a downward spiral (money, lack of forwards, injuries, owners)

But ALONSO's absence, is the worst of it

Just look at what happened to Real Madrid in their 2nd leg match.... No alonso IN THE GAME
Aliko (Barcelona) 4 years ago
Guys we must keep the topic "Alonso" behind us.... The thing happened and we can't change it. We have to focus on future.... We have to create something from our situation and try to sign Top players!
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Aliko is correct, when he says.... "We have to create something from our situation and try to sign Top players!"

Kenny Dalglish is the "somthing" Liverpool need
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Chaps it goes without saying that each and everyone of the moments above hold merit.... But in these times of turmoil.... Would it not be prudent to have a icon.... A symbol.... A champion at the helm....

Someone who would inspire hope and get the Kop signing again.... And get the team wining again more to the point.

Someone who knows Football inside out.... Someone who has a bond with the team inside and out.... Kenny Dalglish




Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Firstly, great post Dutch Reds. Surely no Liverpool fan is truly happy with anything other than first and domestically we haven't achieved that feat in over twenty years now. I still think Rafa can lead us to that elusive PL title, but then again there are many managers that can do that. I would be very sad to see him leave the club, I think he is a fantastic manager, and I know no Liverpool supporter will forget the miracle in Istanbul. Though the squad was mainly the work of Gerard Houllier, Rafa was the manager at the helm leading the comeback. It would be painful to see him go after constructing the team and the season that came so close to getting us our title last year. But like you have said many times before in the post,

"when you are first you are first. When you are second you are nothing" Bill Shankly.

So he(Rafa) still hasn't won the premiere league title. Not last year, nor this year but I think he has the potential to win it next year. Whether that potential is realized or not, we shall see, but I would like to see Rafa given that chance next season. Getting into the top four this season will help his case I think. And obviously winning the Europa League would be a huge boost for the club and the supporters since we haven't won anything since the great 2006 FA Cup final.

What Rafa lacks is charisma, that's what the great Bill Shankly had in oodles and oodles. There will never be another like him, and Rafa's statue sill never be in front of the Liverpool stadium. But maybe he can win us a title, and another or maybe not. But next year is his last chance, Liverpool fans will not be content with anything but first, especially if Untied surpass us this year. He knows the stakes will be high next season, if he is still manager of LFC.

My question for you is who would you have replace Benitez? Kenny Dalglish, in my mind he would be the perfect fit. But he doesn't have much experience as a manager, although he knows the game, the club, and the players inside and out like you said. And his commitment and desire would never be questioned. I can remember another Scottish manager who did pretty good things for the Reds haha. The manager who made the all red kit standard, to intimidate and make it known we were there to play, red shirt, red shorts and red socks, got to love it. So I would love to see Dalglish as manager, but not before Rafa is given one more chance.

And remember Dutch Reds, "at the end of the storm, there's a golden sky" that song serves a purpose. The lyrics are why it is the song of LFC, they are strong lyrics. Not everything will be good, but look at the history of our club and you know we will shine again. We will always be Liverpool Football Club no matter what, win or lose. And for that we are proud supporters. Yes to be in first is all that makes us really happy, but I think you may have caught some people grinning in the Mersy at the end of the Sunderland game.

BTW, our hopes for fourth were just given a big dent by some shotty refereeing, scared goalkeeping, and the brilliance of Carlos Tevez. Still can't read what it says on his shinguard though, other than the number on his back.

Ynwa
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
I think we all understand that Football is a fickle game and no team are invincible…that is a given fact. And to be frank with you Rarimapirate Sunderland are not a side that are of the quality of Liverpool.... I was disappointed that they never battered then 7-O.

Again a demonstration of Rafa `s negative repose …taking off players that need to game time under their belt and gel and build confidence as a unit? What he will say is that we have a Europa Game and I want to keep them fit. Like I said in an post on another forum what happens if we don’t get the 4 th spot due to Goal difference? What would you say then…would it be something like…well at least we kept Torres and Ste G fit the Europa games

I am somewhat concerned when you say “But he doesn't have much experience as a manager”

So let’s compare:

Kenny
As a player
Celtic
Scottish First Division Winner(4): 1971–72, 1972–73, 1973–74, 1976–77 Runner-up(1): 1975–76 Scottish Cup Winner(4): 1972, 1974, 1975, 1977 Runner-up(1): 1973 Scottish League Cup Winner(1): 1975 Runner-up(5): 1972, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1977
Liverpool
Football League First Division Winner(6): 1978–79, 1979–80, 1981–82, 1982–83, 1983–84, 1985–86 Runner-up(3): 1977–78, 1984–85, 1986–87 * FA Cup Winner(1): 1986 League Cup Winner(4): 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984 Runner-up(2): 1978, 1987 Charity Shield Winner(5): 1980, 1981, 1983, (Shared): 1978, 1987 Runner-up(2): 1984, 1985 European Cup Winner(3): 1978, 1981, 1984 Runner-up(1): 1985 European Super Cup Winner(1): 1978 Runner-up(1): 1979 Intercontinental Cup Runner-up(2): 1982, 1985
Managerial honors
Liverpool
Football League First Division Winner(3): 1985–86, 1987–88, 1989–90 Runner-up(3): 1986–87, 1988–89 FA Cup Winner(2): 1986, 1989 Runner-up(1): 1988 Football League Cup Runner-up(1): 1987 Charity Shield Winner(4): 1988, 1989 (Shared): 1986, 1990
Blackburn Rovers
FA Premier League Winner (1): 1994–1995 Runner-up(1): 1993–1994 Football League Second Division Play Off Winner(1): 1991–1992 Charity Shield Runner-up(2):1993-94, 1994–95
Newcastle United
FA Premier League Runner-up(1)1996–97 FA Cup Runner-up(1):1998
Celtic
Scottish Premier League Runner-up: 1999–00 Scottish League Cup Winner: 2000





Rafa
Parla
Tercera División Winner (1): 1981–82
Manager
Real Madrid U-19s Spain U-19 League Winner (1): 1993 Spain U-19 Cup Winner (2): 1991, 1993
Extremadura
Segunda División Promotion1): 1997–98
Tenerife
Segunda División Promotion (1): 2000–01
Valencia
La Liga Winner (2): 2001–02, 2003–04 UEFA Cup Winner (1): 2003–04
Liverpool
Uefa Champions League Winner (1): 2004–05 FA Cup Winner (1): 2005–06 UEFA Super Cup Winner (1): 2005 FA Community Shield Winner (1): 2006

Make no mistake:
"at the end of the storm, there's a golden sky" I know the intent of this song.... I have been in the trenches and seen at first hand the dark side and the good side of life as a Liverpool supporter, you will never know what those words mean to me.... I have seen a lot of things over the years believe me.
My dad was a good buddy with Ian st John so believe me when I say Liverpool runs in my blood Before I was born I was in the kop.... Yes you have read that correctly.... My Mother and Father where fanatic Red`s my Mum was six months pregnant when she went to see Liverpool at home playing against Dundalk FC. Apparently we battered them 10:0.
This fanatic trait even extended to my christening as my middle name should have been Ian St John, however due to a mix up.... Which I won’t expand upon, I was christened Ian.
Whatever your view is, it is correct from your own point of view.... All I know being born Scouse and from generations of avid supporters is that yes Rafa is a good manager but is he the best is he as good as others in the game?

…Shanks made Liverpool into a bastion based upon the foundation of :
"when you are first you are first. When you are second you are nothing" Bill Shankly.
What is a concern is that Rafa is still dining out on the 2005 champions league win in some supporters eyes...
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
He is an e-mail I got from a kopite :

Liverpool should not sack rafa, 'cause it will cost them 16m in wages, plus his backroom staff is around 10m

So its money we haven't got, also, who are they going to get in? Peolpe keep mentioning Mourinho, but he will not come with out major investment (if he would come at all), so we can only piss with dick we have.... & that rafa

Therefore we keep him.... But if I'm being honest & ask my self "have Liverpool gone backwards this season" the answer is yes! But I think that only 'cause we played to the maximum of our ability last season....
Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago
To be quite honest I didn't know King Kenny had so much managing under his belt. Of course I know he was one of the first player/managers with Liverpool, and I know all about his legendary playing days at Anfield, but didn't know the rest of his managing history. Thanks for the information and statistics.

As for the Sunderland game, I didn't see it live. I saw a replay of it, but only the first half and we played beautiful attacking football in that first half. I think we were unlucky not to have more goals in that first half, Rafa can't do anything about that. Players have to finish, I think he made the right substitutions against United and were unlucky not to take all three points from Old Trafford again, unfortunately Fernando couldn't come through in the clutch like he has so many times before. We would be in a much better position if we had even taken one point from that game, but we didn't so now all we can do is look ahead. Hopefully we can catch a break for once this year and get into the top four.

I think one of the biggest differences between this year and last, is that we have lost a lot of heartbreakers and close matches late in the game, while as last year we were on the other end of those games celebrating a late goal and victory. Yossi vs. Fulham, Fernando vs Chelsea, holding up the P for his wife and child, Fabio Aurelio sealing it in the Theater of Dreams, Gerrard against Middlesbrough, Torres vs. Portsmouth. So many great and memorable victories last season. This season has been quite the opposite. The beach ball incident at Sunderland, heartbreaking. Arshavin at Anfield. Lisandro Lopez in Lyon after some shotty defence and a fantastic strike from Ryan Babel a few minutes before that should have won us the game. Against Fiorentina, the list goes on.

So how much of that bad luck is Rafa creating? Is it his fault or the players. Last year many people thought we were playing the best football in England for much of the season. Of course we didn't win the title so that doesn't matter. But what happened? Is there just a different atmosphere and attitude this year? And is Rafa to blame? Can we create that atmosphere next year? I would say yes to that last question. It's about the law of attraction. The supporters have to believe, always. We are the best team in the history of football, more than Real Madrid or AC Milan or the mancs. So sing for Liverpool. Everyday, wherever you are, France, Holland, Zambia, Estados Unidos, it doesn't matter where you are. You are feeding the fire when you are singing and believing. Think good thoughts and good things will happen.

Ynwa, believe in belief
Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Excuse me, Fernando actually held up the P against Portsmouth after his stoppage time winner.

The goals against Chelsea were great too But his celebration after that one was the slide on the knees into the sitting Rajah, got to love it
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Re: "So how much of that bad luck is Rafa creating? ".... Besides injuries.... And the occasional bad Ref decisions.... I would say yes it is bad luck.... BUT don't forget THE FACT THE other mangers ARE ALSO subjected TO THE SAME BAD LUCK.

"Of course we didn't win the title so that doesn't matter" I don't understand you question !

I am not here to try and change anyone's point of view I just want to get my view across.... So I would say that yes Rafa is to blame for the fact that we have the biggest squad in the Prem and are one of the clubs that have spent the most with nothing to show for it.... The fact is we are stuck with Rafa FOR THE NEXT 5 years.... And that is a fact.... That only bit of bad luck was the beach ball.... But if Rafa set the side to win.... Ie attacking football then there would not have been a problem....

So it is ok to put your hands around a tree and sing come by ar me lord and tingle your ying and jang centers and think positive. But like I have always said

"when you are first you are first. When you are second you are nothing" Bill Shankly.

“a lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are. ”Bill Shankly.

And.... “Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor. ” Bill Shankly.

How is that for a positive mind set?
I just wish others would think this way.... Ie the liverpool WAY!
Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago
"Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor. " That's my favorite one of Bill's. I have known it for many years, don't think you are the only person capable of reciting Bill Shankly quotes haha. When I heard that quote, I decided then and there that I wanted to be the best footballer in the world, maybe the best ever, why not right. Why aim for the sky when you can aim for the stars?

Anyways don't condescend me with this put your hands around the tree bull s**t alright friend, I don't need to hear it. Although it was pretty funny you didn't mean it like that. I am a very positive person, but I am not ignorant so choose your words more carefully next time ay? Have some respect.

What I was saying about "of course we didn't win the title so that doesn't matter" is very simple. I was not asking any questions I was making a statement. We were playing beautiful football last year, probably the best in England, but it means nothing if we do not end the season in first. Follow me on that one?

I believe in that philosophy that you must always aim for the sky. So let us aim for the sky. Liverpool till I die. If Rafa is really talking to Juve while the season is still going on, f**k him. I have no more trust in him. We still have fourth to win and a trophy in Europa League, he can not be distracted by talks with another club, screw him and his agent. Bring in King Kenny. I have no more faith in Rafa if he has betrayed us for an Italian club, when his loyalty should still lie with the Mersy.

Ynwa
Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago
However if these rumors are untrue about Rafa and Juve, then I still support him. This must be said.    Ynwa
SergioRamos (Liverpool) 4 years ago
I think buying Alberto was a bad choice. With 20million pounds we could have bought a more stable player that suited the premier ship more. Alberto's fitness now means he finds it hard againts the really tough teams and he aint the player he once was predicted to be.

I think buying maxi rodriques was essential. If we didn't, what a hell of a mess rafa would have been in. He can play in almost every postition except defensive midfield. He seems to be suiting the rafatation and I see a good 5-6 years from him to come.... Hopefully.

I'm just not sure if alberto will ever do good...
ManUK (Manchester United) 4 years ago
Pragathish (AC Milan) 4 years ago
Gamble, in other words. Alberto has a very good technique, and is a very good player, but Rafa should have opted for someone who is not injury prone. He had loads of options, and I'm still trying to figure out why he bought him. I also wonder why Rafa keeps on playing Lucas, even T times when he has Alberto fit.
Anyway, he'll do good for Liverpool in the next season
SergioRamos (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Alberto sure was a gamble.

I'm just not sure why he didn't get a striker. I think gerrard could go back in midfield and open up more fluid play, and he could have bought more then one player

Th
ScooterHayes (Chelsea) 4 years ago
As far as Lucas goes, I have a sneaking suspicion that Rafa will play him as long as he is healthy and convincing at training. He maybe is hoping that he will blossom on the field and become something useful. I'm not sure. It definitely seems Rafa is favoring him for some reason though....

Is he Rafa's secret love child?
Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
My big fear is that, if Rafa is kicked out, we get a spell like after Dalglish was finished. Almost 20 years of mediocrity. Rafa has been closer to glory than any other manager in almost two decades.

The simple fact is, since Dalglish, Rafa has had the highest win % of any manager. I've been a fan throughout that entire time, right from just before Kenny came in first. I've had to sit and watch Souness decimate the team into skinheads, Roy Evans be very amiable and nice, but do nothing of merit apart from win one cup (I met him by the way, at Anfield). This is with players like Robbie Fowler, Michael Owen, Steve McManaman at their disposal - some of the best in their positions at the time.

Check out where I did some comparisons: Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Liverpool_F.C._manag...

Now, you might say, yes - but Rafa is so negative, not Liverpool's style. All I know is that in the last 15 years, of all the managers, Rafa has given me the best moments. In 2005, watching that champions league final and 3-0 down, all my mates texting me laughing, and then we win the entire thing. Last season, fighting to the bitter end for the premiership, amazing performances week-in, week-out and everyone saying Liverpool play the best football in the league.

If I had my way, Rafa would get ten years at Anfield. My opinion is, its better the devil you know. The only way I'd accept the change is if Kenny Dalglish agreed to be the next long-term manager. Not interim, not half a season until we get a replacement, but five or more years. Otherwise, the gates are open for another fifteen years of frustration and manager swaps every six months. You can't build anything permanent on shifting sands
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
He is an e-mail I got from a kopite :

Liverpool should not sack rafa, 'cause it will cost them 16m in wages, plus his backroom staff is around 10m

So its money we haven't got, also, who are they going to get in? Peolpe keep mentioning Mourinho, but he will not come with out major investment (if he would come at all), so we can only piss with dick we have.... & that rafa

Therefore we keep him.... But if I'm being honest & ask my self "have Liverpool gone backwards this season" the answer is yes! But I think that only 'cause we played to the maximum of our ability last season....
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Nice link Link Ant: en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/List_of_Liverpool_F. [C.] _manag....

But what it does not take into account other experience from their whole managerial career.... I know that if you are a good player does not automatically say you will be a good manager.... I think it is about Management and inspiration to the team to perform week on week going from strength to strength.... That is the mark of a good manager.... Don’t forget the key ingredient.... Consistency
Juno (AC Milan) 4 years ago
Ant, you got this wrong " Rafa has been closer to glory than any other manager in almost two decades". Gerard Houllier net a 2nd place finish behind Arsenal in 2001.

Last 10 years. Rafa was mainly extending on GH's record in Liverpool. Under GH- 7th, 4th 3rd 2nd, 4th . Under Rafa - 5th 3rd 3rd 4th 2nd and going on 5th this year....
For the past 10 years, Liverpool are on a yoyo ride. They have not been challenging the titles for 8 out of the last 10. This year was no different. If being 2nd is a high point in Liverpool's fan mindset, then times must have changed. Still, I'm merely here to state the fact that Liverpool hasn't really improve.
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Spot on Juno the fact is everyone still loves the 2005 victory.... As I do too, but Rafa has this as his get out of jail card all the time with the us fans.... If he would only play a more attacking game and show he is setting his stall out to win that would make a big difference, I would sooner see a Liverpool team that has ago instead of defending a 1 goal lead...
Eric (Manchester United) 4 years ago
Give Rafa some money and new owners and I bet you'll see some rockstar talent come into Liverpool. If he recruits more Lucases, kick him to the curb. Rafa is a good manager, unless you're fixing to get Morinho I don't know why you'd want a new one
Juno (AC Milan) 4 years ago
Personally I like Rafa as a coach, not his transfer dealings. He prefers to spend on few unknown or less quality players rather than just buy 1 or 2 every year. I meant, even if I don't agree with Real Madrid's style of dealings, its still better than Rafa's way of spending.

2 cents
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
I would soon see Kenny take the rains !
Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Simple question: How did every Liverpool fan who wants Rafa out feel about him when we were fighting to win the Premiership less than a year ago? Please don't quote Shankley again, I'm talking about when we were actually top of the table with only a few games left
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
You are spot on again Ant, not many of us is probably the answer, I know I was`t. But then the die was already cast.... What with Alonso Gate. It seemed once he left, the whole thing fell apart.

I love the red`s as do many on this forum do, but I think, and this is just my personal view, that to give the manager, that has made a lot of mistakes.... Even he admitted this him self on the BBC. (maybe he thinks it is time to through him self on the sword) full backing and support is not doing the club any good.

We as supporters must voice our concern with the decisions he takes and not provied Rafa with to much reassurance about his decisions when he get them wrong.

Us Liverpool supporters do look after are own.... Up until a point. If he continuously does not improve Liverpool then he is not doing what he is payed to do.

Most I have chatted to are somewhat confused, yes players have off days we all know that, but if you look at last nights performance they looked like the Liverpool of old.

So you ask your self the question why can`t we try to play like that game upon game? It is the attacking outlook that was the difference last night.

At one point I said to the lad`s have we signed a new player.... Referring to Lucas.... If that boy can play like that on a constant basis, he will do for me! Now I have never been a fan of Lucas.... But last night made me think, is Lucas or is it Rafa that defines the players performances to some extent?

Now we could bring up Pennant Albert Riera Ste G and others that had comments about Rafa and his management style.

One thing is for sure Ant for a supporter like me it`s not easy to voice a negative opinion, but if we as supporters lay back and behave like lemmings then we have got to ask the question do we care enough about the club.

Sometimes one needs the testicular fortitude to try to open the minds of supporters even if you run the risk of unpopularity.

Like I say it is easy to follow the crowd and say YNWA but if we don't buck up are exceptions we will never with that prem.... At the end of the day I do think Rafa is a good manager.... I am still not convinced yet.

When he starts to consistently win the Prem like the managers of old (THE league) then I will be convinced of the Management abilities.


Pragathish (AC Milan) 4 years ago
As a neutral, I honestly feel that Rafa shouldn't be taking the rap. What can you expect from him when you actually got no funds? He is trying to find the best possible solution out of nothing, and I believe he is doing his best with this limited resources.
So, I say, changing the manager is definitely not the best idea, and in turn it would make the club a laughing material for the rivals. I'm not saying 'Give him some time', I'm saying 'Give him some funds'.
Simple. If Rafa gets sacked, the new manager has to start all the things from scratch, and I can't even imagine how dreadful the debut season would be with the new manager. Rafa is stretching things to farthest limit. I feel pity for him, he in no way, is responsible for Liverpool's disastrous campaign.
I would like to compare Rafa with AC Milan's gaffer Leonardo. Both sensible guys, limited funds in the pocket, and trying their level best, and actually doing fantastic. The only difference is, here in the EPL the sudden rise of mid-table dwellers like Spur, City and Villa has made things ungly.

Please stop blaming Rafa
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
No one wants to make it personal about Rafa I have always said he is a good manager, but the fact is since being at Liverpool has spent a lot of money and has one of the biggest squads in the prem and to quote an early post From Juno

" Rafa has been closer to glory than any other manager in almost two decades". Gerard Houllier net a 2nd place finish behind Arsenal in 2001.

Last 10 years. Rafa was mainly extending on GH's record in Liverpool. Under GH- 7th, 4th 3rd 2nd, 4th. Under Rafa - 5th 3rd 3rd 4th 2nd and going on 5th this year....
For the past 10 years, Liverpool are on a yoyo ride. They have not been challenging the titles for 8 out of the last 10. This year was no different. If being 2nd is a high point in Liverpool's fan mindset, then times must have changed. Still, I'm merely here to state the fact that Liverpool hasn't really improve. "

All things considered it has been a bad season granted, and the fact is it will cost 26 mill to say bye bye to Rafa and his back room staff, which we have not got.... So to some extent we all know their is not much we can do. Plus the fact that we have to pay back 40 mill in interest payments before we open the Shankly Gates each season.

But all this does not excuses Rafa from his obligations ie to put a side out on the filed of play that can play like then did last night.

And we all know about the injury problems which has not helped. But we are Liverpool FC and we expect more like every fan,

Does anyone know how much Rafa has had to rebuild the side since he came to Liverpool?
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
• Alvero Arbeloa – £2m
• Ryan Babel - £11. 5m
• Yossi Benayoun - £5m
• Scott Carson - £750, 000
• Lucas Leiva - £6m
• Andriy Voronin – free
• Diego Cavalieri - £3m
• David Ngog - £1. 5m
• Robbie Keane - £20. 3m
• Andrea Dossena - £7m
• Philipp Degen – free
• Martin Skrtel – £6. 5m
• Albert Riera – £8m
• Glen Johnson - £18m
• Alberto Aquilani - £20m
• Sotirios Kyrgiakos - £1. 5
• Luis Garcia - £6m
• Xabi Alonso - £10. 7m
• Peter Crouch - £7m
• Momo Sissoko - £5. 3m
• Sebastian Leto - £1. 85m
• Gabriel Palletta - £2m
• Bolo Zenden – free
• Pepe Reina - £6m
• Fernando Morientes - £8m
• Daniel Agger - £5. 8m
• Robbie Fowler – free
• Craig Bellamy - £6. 5m
• Dirk Kuyt - £10m
• Jermaine Pennant - £6. 7m
• Mark Gonzalez - £1. 5m
• Fabio Aurelio – free
• Javier Mascherano - £17m
• Fernando Torres - £22m
Josemi – £2m.... Total spend - £229. 65m (not including signing on fees)
Azeal (Liverpool) 4 years ago
You know.... When he resell them, there are profits. Plus, some of these players are bought after he was forced to sell?

What I am trying to say is, if you are going to calculate stuff.... Calculate throughly, the income vs expenditure, profit vs lost. Include other incomes (trophy + champions league entrance), etc. Put in mind the current value of the players he brought in, some of them turn out to be the best in the business
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Out

• Michael Owen - £8m + Antonio Nunez in
• El Hadji Diouf - £2m
• Antonio Nunez - undisclosed
• Josemi – swap with Jan Kromkamp
• Bolo Zenden – free
• Vladimir Smicer - free
• Jerzy Dudek - free
• Igor Biscan – free
• Luis Garcia - undisclosed
• Robbie Fowler - free
• Djibril Cisse – £6m
• Xabi Alonso – £30m
• Harry Kewell – free
• Stephane Henchoz – free
• Stephen Warnock - £1. 5m
• John Arne Riise - £3m
• Peter Crouch - £11m
• Momo Sissoko - £6m
• Craig Bellamy - £7. 5m
• Mark Gonzalez - £500, 000
• Djimi Traore - £2m
• Scott Carson - £3. 75m
• Fernando Morientes - £3m
• Chris Kirkland – undisclosed
• Jan Kromkamp - undisclosed
• Robbie Keane – (up to) £19m
• Sebastian Leto - £3m
• Gabriel Palletta - £2m
• Sami Hyypia – free
• Alvero Arbeloa – £2m
• Darren Potter - £250, 000
• Danny Guthrie - £2. 5m

Total - £112. 5m

Net spend since summer 2004 - £117. 15m (not including signing on fees)

Players brought through the ranks since 2004

• Emilio Insua (28 games for 1st team)
• Nabil El Zhar (25 games)
• David Ngog (22 games)
• Jay Spearing (3 games)
• Stephen Darby (2 games)

DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
How is that?
Kimaway17 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
First of all the 4-2-3-1 formation is not working for me. Already you can see its to defensive. Kuyt on the right is also not working. Don't get me wrong. I love Kuyt. He's an amazing player. But not the sort of player I want on the wing. The game yesterday was a good game. I want us to player like that week in week out. I think Rafa has stayed at Liverpool to long. We need to adopt a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 formation. We need to sell players like Riera and we need to get some back up players or some better first team players. We don't have a back up for Glen. And we need to get some star players, because we can't keep on relying on Gerrard and Torres. We need to get players like Silva Sneider. I think benitez alonso was the dumbest thing he has done
Rockerr (Liverpool) 4 years ago
But Alonso wanted a move away for his 'dream club'. Nothing Rafa could do about that
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Alonso Gate....This is what happened....Read this By Jaimie Kanwar - Wednesday, July 15, 2009

The alienation of Xabi Alonso by the demoralizer, Rafa Benitez....

Xabi Alonso seems certain to leave Liverpool for Real Madrid this summer, which comes as no surprise given his demoralizing treatment at the hands of Rafa Benitez over the last 2 years...

The latest in this summer's most predictable (and regrettable) transfer saga is that Alonso has allegedly told Benitez that he wants to leave Anfield. As much as I would hate for this to happen, I don’t blame him for wanting to leave at all - Benitez has done his best to demotivate Alonso over the last couple of years and he has clearly had enough.

Here are few examples of how Benitez has used his fabled man-management skills to alienate the Liverpool playmaker:

1. 2007-08 – In the first months of this season, Alonso had (inexplicably) been an early victim of Benitez's rotation policy, starting 4 games and warming the bench for 3, including being an unused sub in two Champions League encounters with Toulouse.

With Steven Gerrard out injured against Derby, Alonso seized his chance and proceeded to run the show as Liverpool battered the rams, with Alonso scoring 2 of the 6 goals that day.

Then disaster struck: Alonso was injured against Portsmouth on September 15th 2007 - a devastating blow for the Basque maestro, who was clearly high in confidence after his Derby heroics.

So Alonso was injured. It happens to most players at one time or another, so need for alarm. The fatal blow came 43 days later, when Benitez inexplicably rushed him back from injury and put him in the starting line up against Arsenal.

It was gamble by Benitez that spectacularly failed to pay off. Alonso aggravated the same injury he had suffered against Portsmouth and was forced off. Just for the sake of clarity, here is the proof that it *was* the same injury:

Portsmouth Injury Report: Link: www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/news/2007/sep/...

Arsenal Injury Report: Link: www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/news/2007/oct/...

Alonso was rushed back after just six weeks, which was a major mistake considering every player in world football who has had the same injury has taken much longer to recover. Examples: Wayne Rooney - 14 weeks. Steven Gerrard - 10 weeks. Daniel Agger – almost three months!

As a result of that catastrophic decision, Alonso missed a further 5 weeks of the season. When he returned from injury, he was in and out of the team, with precious little time to build up any rhythm or consistency.

2. February 2008: To add insult to injury, Benitez proceeded to publicly criticise Alonso, stating the following:

"Xabi needs to step it up. When you are not 100 per cent fit, you want to play every game because you need to play more games to build up your fitness…Xabi knows he needs to work harder if he wants to have a place in the team."

What possible benefit did Alonso gain from these needless comments? And if, as Benitez stated, Xabi knew he had to work harder' then why was it is necessary to say the same thing in public?

He had only been back in the first team for a month or so after his 11 week lay-off; of course it would take him time to find his momentum again. What he didn’t need was his Manager suggesting he was not putting in the appropriate effort.

3. Summer 2008 and the Gareth Barry fiasco. Benitez's ‘idea’ to replace Alonso with Barry was cretinous to say the least, and he pursued the player with barely concealed zeal and absolutely no respect or consideration for Alonso. This was all compounded by Steven Gerrard - his supposed 'team' mate, who rubbed salt in the wounds with his embarrassing public tapping-up of Barry.

What goes around comes around, however, and Benitez’s gross lack of loyalty towards Alonso last year is coming back to haunt the club at exactly the wrong time.

4. Failing to utilize Alonso properly and play to his strengths.

5. Shunting Alonso around to accommodate Gerrard.

6. Forcing Alonso to change his game from skilful, creative playmaker to defensive midfielder tasked with doing all the donkey-work for Gerrard.

7. Signing Javier Mascherano and Lucas, thus marginalizing Alonso’s role in the team and making the competition for midfield players too intense.

With all this in mind, is any wonder that Alonso wants to leave?

That Alonso was outstanding last season is a testament to his ability, dedication and professionalism; it has nothing to do with Benitez’s managerial skills.

It would be a tragedy to lose Alonso, as he is one of Benitez’s finest signings and is blessed with an essential skill that no other current Liverpool player possesses: the ability to intelligently dictate the pace of play.

Alonso is a quintessential Liverpool-type player, cut from the same cloth as the likes of Jan Molby and Ronnie Whelan – an exquisite passer of the ball and an asset to any team serious about challenging for honours

He is a joy to watch, and Liverpool should be pulling out the stops to keep him, but the truth is, Benitez actually wants to sell Alonso. He proved this last summer, and he proved it again in April 2009 with the these comments in response to interest from Juventus:

“If Juventus were asking for him at the right price – in football everybody has a price”.

This was after Benitez publicly claimed that he didn’t want to sell the player this summer. It’s clear though that his comments basically represented a form of subtle, public negotiation with Juventus, along the lines of “Come in with the right offer and he’s yours".

Replace Juventus with Real Madrid and nothing has really changed.

Having said that, after last season’s performances, I’m sure Benitez finally realises Alonso’s true value to the team and secretly hopes that he will stay.

It’s too late though – the damage has already been done. Sooner rather than later, Xabi Alonso is leaving Liverpool, and the responsibility for losing such an important players rest solely on the shoulders of Rafa Benitez
Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
I don't think I have ever read such a biased, hateful piece of journalism in my life.

It seems the guy that wrote it is notorious for attacking Liverpool in many forms, as is obvious from a quick google search. Check out this:

Link: www.empireofthekop.com/anfield/?p=6108

He seems to hate Mascherano, Aurelio, Gerrard, Rafa, anyone he doesn't think fits into his opinion of Liverpool.

Here he is slandering Gerrard: Link: www.sportingo.com/football/a7915_fawning-failure-l...

Scroll down and read the comments under the first link I posted
Kimaway17 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
BENITEZ SHOULD LEAVE
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
For some reason mate I don`t think that will happen, now that The Reds are getting a 300 mil injection...
Kimaway17 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Really. I don't know anything on the money side of football
BIJACK (AC Milan) 4 years ago
300 mil from who?  This is a great news. Rafa can buy star players.  Dang.... I'm not really following football news lately
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Kimaway17 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Rafa should not be doing the Spending. He has no wisdom in buying players
DutchReds (Liverpool) 4 years ago
New Liverpool chairman Martin Broughton pledges his support to boss Rafael Benitez and insists it is not necessary for the club to sell any players
Kimaway17 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
This sucks. Am sorry but I think he should go



   
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