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Real Madrid - Deliberate Red Cards
Blueskiesahead (Chelsea) 3 years ago
Its not new, however I never had the chance to post it.

Keep in mind that this is being said from my memory as I can't find the article at the moment.

After a real madrid appeal, the player fines for all four players were either dropped altogether, or greatly lessened, while mourinho's fine was cut by 2/3 of what it had originally been
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
Big clubs like Madrid are generally treated leniently compared to smaller clubs. We have all seen appeals being lessened for these big clubs over the years. Recent example: Calciopoli's clubs all received ridiculous points deductions, but after appeals, ALL got lesser punishments. This doesn't tells us Madrid is right. It only tells us the jurisdiction in football is flawed. Where on earth do you find in a country where reputable jurisdiction is there and all the appeals get lessen by the courts? Only in football will this happens. Fifa is a government in football where its own executive asks money for votes. Tell me that is right blue
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
Well, the punishment has been laid out, and while it's not too drastic, I think it's clear that UEFA will not tolerate this and it's wrong. I have to admit I'm glad their actions were condemned.

Makes me a bit dissappointed to see so many football fans who are indifferent or openly support this kind of dirty s**t, which simply doesn't belong on the pitch
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
Me too. Pretty upset and disappointed as well
Adamaus (Manchester United) 3 years ago
I don't see how its so bad, they werent throwing a match or playing to physical it was dangerous, or making the game incredibly boring to watch, they won the game fair and square and took advantage of the rules of the game to ensure they have there best side for the matches that really matter
Eric (Manchester United) 3 years ago
Am I the only one here who is just pleased that they were sent off using this method as opposed to the less obvious but more prominent late, studs up tackle? Seriously, this happens all over but often at the expense and physical health of the opposition's players. They could have made a rash tackle or two and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Mourinho is within the rules and they have no business taking any action towards him or the players. Ethical? Eh, not really. Am I outraged about this? Absolutely not. Just glad they did it without crippling anyone
Blueskiesahead (Chelsea) 3 years ago
Thank you. This is a huge thing for me. People seem to be making this out as the first time anyone has every intentionally gotten a yellow card to get a suspension out of the way. This is hardly the case. This is however the first time I have seen a player go about it in such a way that does not include risking injury to another player
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
Eric, " They could have made a rash tackle or two and we wouldn't be having this conversation"

Sergio Ramos has officially written himself into the history of Real Madrid with his recent reds - as the most sent off player in the history of the club. 1 for not crippling anyone and 1 for trying to - though he failed in that instance.

If its within the rules, there won't be fines and bans handed out. And if the club is without any ethics, then perhaps next time Mourinho will get his players to maim the opponents main guy for the victory needed. You never know how low a person can stoop to if he operates without ethics and morals
NYRBforever (New York Red Bulls) 4 years ago
He didn't break any rules. If uefa want to stop this they should change the yellow card/red card suspension rules
Jeroen (Barcelona) 4 years ago
This really is a very simple case: Mourinho is a great coach, but what he instructed his players to do there just once again proves he doesn't hold back any method to increase the odds of winning trophies as long as something's not illegal. He's Machiavelli reborn as a football coach and pretty much epitomises Mac's famous quote "the end justifies all means".
There is also nothing clever about what he did, most 12 year olds that play football will have thought about that too when they were in a similar situation. Not many coaches do it however because they don't completely lack football ethics.
We all know, without even using reason, that what happened there was just wrong in so many ways. Mourinho can't be accused, because he does what every unethical lawyer (was that a pleonasm?) would do: exploit the rule book's flaws
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 4 years ago
Amen
Adamaus (Manchester United) 4 years ago
As long as it is not done as a way so they will lose that match or because of the 1 match ban put themselves in danger of loosing the next I'm fine with it. Why not they are receiving their bans just like anyone else and are prepared to play sometime in a game with less players on the field, its smart. You don't go into a match without thinking about who you might need in a few days time. Football is just as much a game of tactics as it is a game of physical ability. Jose did what was best for his team
Blueskiesahead (Chelsea) 4 years ago
The way I see it, is say madrid makes it to the quarter finals of the champions league and has to play against manchester united. But in the second leg of the round of 16, alonso and ramos both pick up yellow cards. Now you're going to be missing 2 of the stars that people pay to go and watch play in a match that people will pay to go and watch.

Now obviously fans will be paying to go see madrid play auxere. However which would you personally prefer: seeing madrid play manchester without its stars, or madrid play auxerre without its stars. I'm pretty sure that we all want to see the strongest lineups of the strongest teams play against one another. I for one, do not want to see either team missing any players.

Another point is that other clubs have been doing this for years. In fact I'm pretty sure that pique did this just a few weeks ago to ensure that he would be able to play in el classico that is this weekend. No one ever made a fuss about that though. But it is the same thing, and lets face it, players do this every year for every team. If anything, the way in which madrid went about attaining those yellows is even better than other situations I have seen, albeit much more easy to spot. Pique tackled a player in a very reckless and aggressive manner. What happens if that player falls wrong and tears a ligament? At least the way madrid did it did not include any possibility of a player getting injured.

My final point that has been addressed by many is that there is no rule that deals with this situation. Nothing that UEFA has stated in the past condemns such actions. Is this ethically wrong, well that's for each and every one of you to decide individually. However, one can not argue that this is not against the rules
Juno (AC Milan) 4 years ago
1st point. Alonso and ramos both pick up yellow cards. If you don't want the yellow cards, tackle with due care for your opponents. Yellow cards are a warning to your behavior. If you blatantly gets a red card to plan for future match, you are not repenting. Its a total disregard to the rules and to the spirit of the game. Learn to tackle. Don't go for the bloke. Look to Nesta if you need a teaching in the school of tackle. Watch videos of Baresi does his job.

2nd point : "I'm pretty sure that pique did this just a few weeks ago to ensure that he would be able to play in el classico that is this weekend. "

At least its done in a tackle, you see, you can't confirm his intention is to prepare for El classico but its too obvious RM did it for the Qtr finals, and in such blatant ways. If Pique did it, Barca certainly did it in a discreet way as in not getting a investigation done for that. RM should have got Ronaldo sent off as well since he's on a yellow as well, be more obvious !

3rd point. The one good thing about football is that its easy to understand the sport, except for the offside rules, nothing else is really written in stone. Most of the things are judgement by the officials. There's no specific rules to state that a tackle from behind is an automatic red card. Fifa did ask the officials to come down hard on the players for back tackles, but its not a hard code rule. Fifa's rules hasn't really change much since the first time all 17 rules are in place. If you keep exploiting sliding from behind, tackling without due care, then someday, every single thing must be written to prevent ppl from exploiting them. Is that what we want? I don't want the sport to evolve to the stage it must be stop for everything to check if it comply with the rule book. If its not there, it doesn't translate to mean that you should exploit it. Even if you do, do it discreetly. Not blatantly ignoring the rest of the world watching.

Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 4 years ago
Blueskieshahead, you honestly think guys like Mourinho do all that because the fans prefer to see their stars play in a certain match? Or is it maybe because of his huge ego and his obsession with winning? Anyway, as a football fan, I go to the stadium to watch my team, not individual players, even if they're stars. If some key players get banned due to cards, I will accept with no problem as it's part of the game. You call exploiting the rules tactics, but to me tactics has more to do with avoiding cards. If your team gets many cards, your change your tactics in order to lower the amount of cards.

At the end of the day, everyone has their ideas of what something means, but saying stuff like "if you condemn Mourinho's actions, you condemn tactics" is nonsense
Blueskiesahead (Chelsea) 3 years ago
First to Juno.

Yes you are certainly right that they should not have been so careless to pick up yellow cards in the first place. However does that really make it any different than purposely getting booked a third time when all three booking were made in separate matches? The player is still intentionally getting himself suspended, whether he accumulated 3 yellows in 2 games or 3.

Now I don't see how you can say that "as least its done in a tackle. " in tackling a player, you put that player's health at risk. There is no telling how that player may fall, how hard the contact might be. To intentionally foul a player for the sake of earning a yellow card is in my opinion, rather reckless, especially as it isn't really necessary to you're teams victory. If anything that is much worse than merely wasting time.

Now it is true that mourinho's case is far easier to see the intent. But lets face it, anyone who has played football at any level with a similar suspension rule will tell you that the coach always has this on his mind with his most important players, and the players always know when the big games are coming up and that they always want to make sure they are available for such matches. I can only imagine how much more so the coaches and players pay attention to the suspension rule in the professional leagues. So you can no tell me that pique did not do that on purpose. Lets be honest year.

I agree with you to a point on your 3rd point. As far as rules on the pitch go, they shouldn't need to be written in stone. That's half the beauty of the game. However with these off the pitch rulings such as the suspension rule, I do believe they should be written clearly. Players are stupid, managers and clubs aren't (generally of course). They know how to exploit loopholes that many players wouldn't. Thus you need a very specific set of rules that managers can not exploit. I wish that managers wouldn't try to do so, but lets face it, they do, and for that reason uefa already does have in place very specific rules on most issues.

Ok, now on to markodon

Of course mourinho did it to win. But that point I made has nothing to do with mourinho. It does have to do with the fan. Mourinho did not do it for the fan. But in doing what he did, the fan will be pleased as well. Case in point: are these suspensions really all that bad now that we know we will see madrids best lineup come up against their next few opponents (possibly) that will likely be top class?

Now you say that cards are a part of the game, yet tactics should be based on avoiding cards. No player should, and I doubt it is very often other than in situations similar to the one we are currently discussing, that players do go out and intentionally try to rack up as many cards as they can. However to say that this is tactics is just silly, and really rather contradicting. If it is a part of the game, then you must embrace it, and work your tactics around it. Unfortunatly to win, and to please the fans, sometimes, you must take that card. You can not make a strategy that includes not getting cards. Every team has a different style. If every team were to follow you're advice and "change [their] tactics in order to lower the amount of cards" then all we would have is la liga football around. And sure some fans wouldn't mind that, but on a worldwide basis, football would lose a huge amount of its spark. The diversity of styles adds so much to the game. The italian serie a and BPL would have to change completely. There would be no difference between leagues and teams. Where would the fun be in that?
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
Blue, we have a different view on these things, and I see now it's pretty pointless continuing with the debate because, while I'm sticking with my original opinion, I also respect your views on the matter. My last word is that the actions were condemned in the end and those involved were punished for it, so obviously stuff like this is not appropriate on the pitch
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
First, With the ban and fines handed to Real Madrid for unsporting behavior, I'm pretty sure UEFA actually agrees with me.

Again, I don't agrees with your argument in that getting yellow via tackles. I pointed out Pique only as an example. Nobody goes out looking for a yellow card in a tackle. If you need a yellow, simple pull the opponents' shirt for more than 5 secs and you'll probably get your ticket. But the thing I'm arguing is whether should "professional" footballers play football in such cowardice manner. Purposely getting the second yellow to prepare for the next round of matches smacks of utter disrespect to the current opponents and the next opponents. Real Madrid is one team that have no morals in their club (transfer dealings- off the pitch). With Mourinho, its worse (now the stuck up attitude is brought onto the pitch as well). To fine and ban them is justice to the teams and fans involved.

"However does that really make it any different than purposely getting booked a third time when all three booking were made in separate matches? The player is still intentionally getting himself suspended, whether he accumulated 3 yellows in 2 games or 3"

That one, I can say, learn to tackle. Avoid your first yellow so that you can no need to stoop to such lowly behavior. No team goes without a suspension. A club as big and rich as Madrid has reserves that can walk straight into other teams' first 11. Why do they even have to do such things? The answer again is disrespect. Disrespecting the rules, the opponents and the fans watching the game.

"Players are stupid, managers and clubs aren't (generally of course). They know how to exploit loopholes that many players wouldn't. "

Players aren't stupid. They can choose. Managers as well. If they wanna stoop until so low, they suck big time. Its like knowing that a container contains money for charity purpose and you purposely steal that container's money. Ethics. Or in Madrid case - None.

"Uefa already does have in place very specific rules on most issues. "

There's a lot things that can be classify as unsporting or cheating, but I doubt Uefa has specific rules in place. Fifa, Uefa and generally all FAs are not transparent enough with their rules and regulations. A lot of times, we don't get how they can come up with a conclusion to fine the amount of money and hand the number of games ban to the clubs players. Its always a case by case scenario. And they are mostly harsher to smaller clubs and lenient towards the powerful big clubs.

I'm actually glad Barca utterly humiliated them. The Madrid of the old days deserves respect but the current regime in recent years - no
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
"The Madrid of the old days deserves respect but the current regime in recent years - no"

Unfortunately, Real is the embodiement of the modern football philosophy, which puts too much emphasis on the business-like aspects like irrational hunger for sucess, ruthless competition, over-ambitiousness. These thing unfortunately cause people to become unethical in their methods because ethics and morals are simply not compatible with them.

The reason why the media decided to focus on this single incident even though it has been done in the past (as some people claim) is because, unlike the others who've tricked the system before, Mourinho did not try to hide his morally wrong actions. In other words, most people before him at least showed that they acknowledged that their actions were wrong, hence doing it covertly (don't get me wrong, that's completely wrong as well). Mourinho, on the other hand, is so shameless that he actually lets us know he believes something like that is perfectly acceptable
Charlie (Barcelona) 4 years ago
It's within the rules so it's fair. Obviously it has been done before, but not as blatant as The Interpreter did it. People are more upset about the way he did it me thinks, its usually done with unnecessary tackles
Charliehenry (Arsenal Arsenal Arsenal) 4 years ago
"The Interpreter" LMAO, Its not a very sporting thing to do
Adrianatorfire (Manchester United) 4 years ago
Sorry, could you please explain your what you meant a bit more clearly, I understand what you are trying to get at but the idea including Rooney is a bit muddled to me
Matt (Footytube Staff) 4 years ago
Just had this thought, Mourinho managed these yellow cards to ensure that his players would start the next phase with clean sheets.
What if a manager takes a player off who is on a yellow and looking a bit reckless (yes I am looking at you Rooney) surely that is (roughly) the same thing plus if you also take into account Blackpool from this season and Wolves from last and the FA deem you have weakened your team in doing the substitution then you will be really really in trouble. So Beware all managers who try and manage!
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 4 years ago
"What if a manager takes a player off who is on a yellow and looking a bit reckless (yes I am looking at you Rooney) surely that is (roughly) the same thing"

So, a manager telling his player to get a deliberate red card is (roughly) the same thing as a manager trying to prevent his player from getting a red card. Wait, what?!
Ltm017 4 years ago
Yeah I don't much get that logic. Its a completely different thing. You sub a player because they become a liabiliy to the team and themselve.

You get a deliberate red to get the upper hand on another team. It makes the game look like a joke especially when said players do it in such a fashion that it looks like they practiced beforehand. Yes it is funny and we laugh ha ha ha buts its not going to be a joke when others start to do it in just the same way
Blueskiesahead (Chelsea) 4 years ago
Think of it this way. There is a rule stating that teams in the PL must play their best lineup at all times. Now say for example rooney is on a hat-trick and is absolutely demolishing the other teams defense; he is the best player on the pitch. However he has a yellow card and looks like he might get a second. SAF takes him off, indeed he takes off the best player on the pitch at the time, thus weakening the lineup, which is in turn, "breaking the rules" technically.

By condemning mourinho and madrid for the actions that were taken this weekend, you thus condemn tactics in this game
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 4 years ago
"There is a rule stating that teams in the PL must play their best lineup at all times. "

What?

"By condemning mourinho and madrid for the actions that were taken this weekend, you thus condemn tactics in this game"

Mate, honestly...
Jeroen (Barcelona) 4 years ago
Agree with Markodon here. Firstly I don't know about that rule. Who's to say what your best line-up is anyway? Secondly: you know I respect you Blue, but your conclusion that we're condemning tactics is ludicrous. It really doesn't weigh up against the fact that we simply accuse his lack of ethics
Blueskiesahead (Chelsea) 3 years ago
Many people didn't know about that rule until last season when Mick McCarthy - Wolverhampton's manager - played a "weakened" side against Manchester united and the FA punished him for it based on this rule. It happened again with Blackpool this season. Now I agree with the issue you raise with that question: "Who's to say what your best line-up is anyway? "

Now I do understand the issue of ethics in the game. Football is a gentleman's game, or it is said to be at least. However this kind of thing has been going on for years now. This is just the first time that the media has made a big deal about it; though there is no doubt that the media did recognize it before this match. I honestly can not count how many times I have heard a commentator state that since a player is on x number of yellow cards, viewers should expect to see him get another to get a suspension out of the way before a big match. Example: pique a couple a of weeks ago (I forget what team they were playing against), when he got a yellow card to get suspended the following match so that he could definitely be able to play against Madrid.

I raise the point of tactics because this type of intentionally getting booked is a common occurrence. Everybody does it it seems. And who can blame them. It is pretty smart to use up suspensions during those pointless or easier matches then see important players missing during a must win match. Yet none of these other instances have ever been looked at -even glanced over. So why should Mourinho be punished for doing the same thing? The only reason I can think of is that this case was more blatant than others. Now if that is the reason then I have a real problem with such judgment. What it says to every footballer, young and old, is that it doesn't matter what you do so long as you don't get caught. This is hardly a view anyone should be encouraging
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
You are speaking for EPL. Blue.... Not UCL or any other european leagues.

And for your last point, you mean if you wanna cheat the system, do it openly? And that's encouraging? HUH?

You know Blue, at some point, I have to agree with you intentional booking is there all along, even if the manager did not instigate, the players might thought of it to be free to play in the important match. But no, whether or not it is intentionally or not, it should not be blatant. Read Mark's comments on the next page for a better answer he gave
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
Blue, what Wolves and Blackpool did is also cowardly, fielding a totally different line-up because you're convinced you don't stand a chance against ManU is just idiotic, I'm not sure I would want a guy like Mick McCarthy as my team's coach. And they also got punished, which is fine by me. But before, you and Matt were trying to compare SAF taking off Rooney in the 2nd part of the match to Mick changing all 10 outfield players for the match vs. ManU, so his first lineup is ready for the match after ManU. I'm sorry, but that's not even close. The Rooney thing is just a normal substitution and every manager has a right to rest his key players if they feel they've already done their job. I mean, you get 3 subs, and it's really up to you what you do with them
Marcinny (New York Red Bulls) 4 years ago
We are discussing the exploitation of a rule. Why not discuss the rule itself at this point. If there is a loophole, you close it. Is it doable in this case?
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 4 years ago
Well I guess they could make the punishment for receving a red card a bit harsher? Say, each red means an automatic 2 match ban. Not sure if this would solve the problem, but it would definately make it more complicated to pull off. Also, they could decrease the prize money for the win according to the yellow/red card record. Let's say if the prize money for a win is 400. 000 euro, take away 20. 000 for each yellow and 50. 000 for each red. Yeah, not sure if Real would give a damn about peanuts (would hurt the smaller teams more, hence somewhat unfair), but it's a thought...
Feidiantrade (AC Milan) 4 years ago
Well, maybe they don't want so many yellow cards
Joeymac (Manchester United) 4 years ago
Well if it isn't in the rules, then they shouldn't do anything about it.
I'm not a fan of mourinho, but it was a good tactical move, though maybe a little unfair
BIJACK (AC Milan) 4 years ago
Alonso & ramos should NOT be given extra ban whatsoever. It's a strategy & there's no rules against that.
What mou did doesn't hurt any one/team. If the opponent is better than RM, then they can beat RM even when alonso&Ramos playing. I don't know bout you guys, but I want to see the best of RM against any team in the champions league.... Be it Chelsea, MU, Inter, be. Muenchen, etc. Any team/person who support UEFA to give penalty to the players involved are just scared of RM
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 4 years ago
"If the opponent is better than RM, then they can beat RM even when alonso&Ramos playing. "

And what if the opponent is missing some key players due to cards?
BIJACK (AC Milan) 4 years ago
Why the opponent didn't do the same as what RM did to ensure those key players playing?
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 4 years ago
They don't know they're playing Real yet. And also because Real didn't inform all the potential eight-finalists of their intentions.

Sorry, that's the best I could do with that question...
BIJACK (AC Milan) 4 years ago
My point in the question I asked is any team should do the same thing if it's necessary
Juno (AC Milan) 4 years ago
Then team's all over the world should get their Ultras to maim the key opponents before the match starts. That will ensure a win. Sure, it sure cause a direct impact on the opposition. Its still better than the sneaky way to get an advantage in this way exploiting the rules. If RM has no intention of playing it 'fair', then they shouldn't attempt to be the gentlemen club that they are trying to. Hire more hackdogs. Play like Wolves and Bolton. If you have the players better than others and you still need to exploit rules, to gain advantage in whateva downright despicable way, you suck big time. Its just like the way they do transfer business. They always go under-table means with the players. Enticing the players without the approval of the clubs. Spreading rumors. All ways to do their business without respect to the teams that hold the players
Ltm017 4 years ago
I say give them an extra game ban. Here we go again. I don't want to hear all this mess about whether its right or wrong. Honestly what do people want? I hope no one who is saying this is right is going to complain in the future about anything. Its ridiculous what people think should and should not be okay. There is some really messed up thinking out there. Its either its all wrong or none of it is wrong.

Next time if they don't want so many yellow cards then learn how to tackle
Juno (AC Milan) 4 years ago
"Next time if they don't want so many yellow cards then learn how to tackle"    That's a great statement. LOL



   
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