Forums / The Stands: Intelligent Footy Debate
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Real Madrid - Deliberate Red Cards
Matt (Footytube Staff) 3 years ago
UEFA have announced they are going to look at the sendings off of Sergio Ramos and Xabi Alonso who both picked up second yellow cards for time-wasting ilate in the club's 4-0 win at Ajax.

The accusation levelled is that they were picked up on purpose so as both players would serve bans in the final match of the group which is effectively a 'dead rubbber'. With the bans served they would then start the next phase of the competition with a clean slate.

Now anyone who saw the match would have to agree that this is more than likely the case as neither player needed to waste time and pick up these bookings. The question is in manipulating the bookings/bans system was any rule broken?

There have been a few occasions in the past where players have taken it upon themselves to clear their bookings notably David Beckham admitted as much on England duty. There is also the standing theory that players either get themselves sent off or reach their bookings limit so that bans are served around Xmas (keep an eye on those bookings over the next few weeks). I am also sure managers will be aware of which players are nearing bans and on which matches they will be served.

So the only real (no pun intended) difference here seems to be how blatant Alonso, Ramos and Mourhino were.

In an ideal world football would be a perfectly honest game, players wouldn't dive, tackles would always be for the ball and the referee would never ever get anything wrong. As we all know that simply isn't the case so in my opinion being clever about bookings is just another necessity in the modern game.

We all want to see games played between the best teams with their best players playing not third choice players having to be used in the latter stages or even finals of tournaments due to the first choice having been banned
Tony (footytube staff) 3 years ago
Would turning the 2 yellows into straight reds make a big difference? , or scupper the real madrid plans
Charliehenry (ryo miyachi) 3 years ago
Rockerr (Liverpool) 3 years ago
IMHO there is nothing wrong in this. Though it is against the spirit of the game but it is well within the rules. Many has already agreed that diving and other forms of cheating is required in the modern game but this isn't that bad. If you can stand diving then you can stand this too.
It is just bending the rules but within the rules
Sharpoon (Hull City) 3 years ago
I'm not Mourinho's biggest fan by a long way but I don't blame him for doing it. He found a loophole that arose because of fifa/uefa rules and exploited in to his own advantage. Teams do this kind of thing all the time, albeit on a smaller scale, and it becomes part of the game. If the authorities want this kind of thing stopped they should be the ones to change, not the clubs themselves
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
So if we find loopholes we are to exploit them? Where's the ethics then? If I know some idiot company shares my private information to other spam company, should I complain? I mean, they are exploiting something that's morally wrong, but not legally. But that doesn't mean we should condone it
Pragathish (AC Milan) 3 years ago
Love him or hate him-but you just gotta' kneel down to Mou's level of cunningness and wit.
It was Fubrizia in its finest form, having said, no rules were crossed, they were only exploited.
Good to go, I'd say
Tony (footytube staff) 3 years ago
I say hang mourinho, he never gave a thought to those of us with ramos or alonso in their dreamfooty teams, so he can go to hell in a handcart for all I care.... Lol.
But seriously, we can't accept cheating
Someone could abuse what happened for betting purposes, then there will be big s**t, so we can't be seen to let it just go
Pragathish (AC Milan) 3 years ago
I don't think cheating's the right word to use, no rules were broke
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
Yeah, not cheating. Just without some bloody integrity and ethics. I support Tony, Mourinho should be ban. He always leave his most interesting tricks for UCL. Remember the case where he accuse ref went to Barca's room?
Soccergal293 (Barcelona) 3 years ago
His n0t cheating his just being sneaky l0l
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
Rules are rules, so technically nothing wrong there. But come on, what the hell is that? It's absolutely immoral and dirty. I hate s**t like that just as much as I hated seeing that lowlife Nani scoring that shameful goal vs Spurs. I mean where is this going? Should all the coaches now start exploiting the holes in the system? I thought fair-play was integral to the game...
Ltm017 3 years ago
Exactly! Could you imagine what it would look like? Watching a match and watching all this garbage going on? Players get injured and players get booked just play the game...
3 years ago
This is nothing new, has been happening for years, but because it was on TV and it involves Mourinho, its suddenly a big deal.

Theres only one person to blame here and that's the referee. Had he not been so naive, he would have had a quiet word with the players and told them that the time they were wasting would just be added on at the end
Matt (Footytube Staff) 3 years ago
I can see it now, "and here we are in the 35th minute of extra time, and Alonso is repeatedly kicking the ref in the nads' but the ref is holding firm and refusing to book him"
3 years ago
I suspect they may get 5 game bans for such a stunt, thus defying the point of their actions
Tony (footytube staff) 3 years ago
Players even do it in the run up to xmas, just to get that week off, its been well known, and they have just been discussing it on the radio on the back of the mourinho saga.
And as netnerd said, its nothing new.
But if that can be done, surely betting can be abused mate?
3 years ago
Well yes it could be abused, but it would be up to the bookmaker to be aware of the situation and price his markets accordingly. In the same way, the referee should have been aware, and used better judgement in dealing with the situation.

In this particular match, it would have been difficult to arrange any sort of betting coup, as the players weren't carrying yellow cards into the game, and only did what they did as they had been booked earlier in the game
Tony (footytube staff) 3 years ago
I'll have £100 on two red cards for this match mate, now that makes a big difference.
Plus the fans paying their money to watch top class players strut their stuff, not strut off the pitch after intentionally getting yourself sent off, theres a whole can of worms opening here
Tony (footytube staff) 3 years ago
What price was 2 red cards for this particular game liam?
3 years ago
Two red cards will have been about 7 or 8/1.

Bookmakers would be made aware way before the game started if there were any strange betting patterns on the game so it would be very difficult to pull something like that off.
Ltm017 3 years ago
I say give them an extra game ban. Here we go again. I don't want to hear all this mess about whether its right or wrong. Honestly what do people want? I hope no one who is saying this is right is going to complain in the future about anything. Its ridiculous what people think should and should not be okay. There is some really messed up thinking out there. Its either its all wrong or none of it is wrong.

Next time if they don't want so many yellow cards then learn how to tackle
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
"Next time if they don't want so many yellow cards then learn how to tackle"    That's a great statement. LOL
BIJACK (AC Milan) 3 years ago
Alonso & ramos should NOT be given extra ban whatsoever. It's a strategy & there's no rules against that.
What mou did doesn't hurt any one/team. If the opponent is better than RM, then they can beat RM even when alonso&Ramos playing. I don't know bout you guys, but I want to see the best of RM against any team in the champions league.... Be it Chelsea, MU, Inter, be. Muenchen, etc. Any team/person who support UEFA to give penalty to the players involved are just scared of RM
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
"If the opponent is better than RM, then they can beat RM even when alonso&Ramos playing. "

And what if the opponent is missing some key players due to cards?
BIJACK (AC Milan) 3 years ago
Why the opponent didn't do the same as what RM did to ensure those key players playing?
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
They don't know they're playing Real yet. And also because Real didn't inform all the potential eight-finalists of their intentions.

Sorry, that's the best I could do with that question...
BIJACK (AC Milan) 3 years ago
My point in the question I asked is any team should do the same thing if it's necessary
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
Then team's all over the world should get their Ultras to maim the key opponents before the match starts. That will ensure a win. Sure, it sure cause a direct impact on the opposition. Its still better than the sneaky way to get an advantage in this way exploiting the rules. If RM has no intention of playing it 'fair', then they shouldn't attempt to be the gentlemen club that they are trying to. Hire more hackdogs. Play like Wolves and Bolton. If you have the players better than others and you still need to exploit rules, to gain advantage in whateva downright despicable way, you suck big time. Its just like the way they do transfer business. They always go under-table means with the players. Enticing the players without the approval of the clubs. Spreading rumors. All ways to do their business without respect to the teams that hold the players
Joeymac (Manchester United) 3 years ago
Well if it isn't in the rules, then they shouldn't do anything about it.
I'm not a fan of mourinho, but it was a good tactical move, though maybe a little unfair
Feidiantrade (AC Milan) 3 years ago
Well, maybe they don't want so many yellow cards
Marcinny (New York Red Bulls) 3 years ago
We are discussing the exploitation of a rule. Why not discuss the rule itself at this point. If there is a loophole, you close it. Is it doable in this case?
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
Well I guess they could make the punishment for receving a red card a bit harsher? Say, each red means an automatic 2 match ban. Not sure if this would solve the problem, but it would definately make it more complicated to pull off. Also, they could decrease the prize money for the win according to the yellow/red card record. Let's say if the prize money for a win is 400. 000 euro, take away 20. 000 for each yellow and 50. 000 for each red. Yeah, not sure if Real would give a damn about peanuts (would hurt the smaller teams more, hence somewhat unfair), but it's a thought...
Matt (Footytube Staff) 3 years ago
Just had this thought, Mourinho managed these yellow cards to ensure that his players would start the next phase with clean sheets.
What if a manager takes a player off who is on a yellow and looking a bit reckless (yes I am looking at you Rooney) surely that is (roughly) the same thing plus if you also take into account Blackpool from this season and Wolves from last and the FA deem you have weakened your team in doing the substitution then you will be really really in trouble. So Beware all managers who try and manage!
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
"What if a manager takes a player off who is on a yellow and looking a bit reckless (yes I am looking at you Rooney) surely that is (roughly) the same thing"

So, a manager telling his player to get a deliberate red card is (roughly) the same thing as a manager trying to prevent his player from getting a red card. Wait, what?!
Ltm017 3 years ago
Yeah I don't much get that logic. Its a completely different thing. You sub a player because they become a liabiliy to the team and themselve.

You get a deliberate red to get the upper hand on another team. It makes the game look like a joke especially when said players do it in such a fashion that it looks like they practiced beforehand. Yes it is funny and we laugh ha ha ha buts its not going to be a joke when others start to do it in just the same way
Blueskiesahead (Chelsea) 3 years ago
Think of it this way. There is a rule stating that teams in the PL must play their best lineup at all times. Now say for example rooney is on a hat-trick and is absolutely demolishing the other teams defense; he is the best player on the pitch. However he has a yellow card and looks like he might get a second. SAF takes him off, indeed he takes off the best player on the pitch at the time, thus weakening the lineup, which is in turn, "breaking the rules" technically.

By condemning mourinho and madrid for the actions that were taken this weekend, you thus condemn tactics in this game
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
"There is a rule stating that teams in the PL must play their best lineup at all times. "

What?

"By condemning mourinho and madrid for the actions that were taken this weekend, you thus condemn tactics in this game"

Mate, honestly...
Jeroen (Barcelona) 3 years ago
Agree with Markodon here. Firstly I don't know about that rule. Who's to say what your best line-up is anyway? Secondly: you know I respect you Blue, but your conclusion that we're condemning tactics is ludicrous. It really doesn't weigh up against the fact that we simply accuse his lack of ethics
Blueskiesahead (Chelsea) 3 years ago
Many people didn't know about that rule until last season when Mick McCarthy - Wolverhampton's manager - played a "weakened" side against Manchester united and the FA punished him for it based on this rule. It happened again with Blackpool this season. Now I agree with the issue you raise with that question: "Who's to say what your best line-up is anyway? "

Now I do understand the issue of ethics in the game. Football is a gentleman's game, or it is said to be at least. However this kind of thing has been going on for years now. This is just the first time that the media has made a big deal about it; though there is no doubt that the media did recognize it before this match. I honestly can not count how many times I have heard a commentator state that since a player is on x number of yellow cards, viewers should expect to see him get another to get a suspension out of the way before a big match. Example: pique a couple a of weeks ago (I forget what team they were playing against), when he got a yellow card to get suspended the following match so that he could definitely be able to play against Madrid.

I raise the point of tactics because this type of intentionally getting booked is a common occurrence. Everybody does it it seems. And who can blame them. It is pretty smart to use up suspensions during those pointless or easier matches then see important players missing during a must win match. Yet none of these other instances have ever been looked at -even glanced over. So why should Mourinho be punished for doing the same thing? The only reason I can think of is that this case was more blatant than others. Now if that is the reason then I have a real problem with such judgment. What it says to every footballer, young and old, is that it doesn't matter what you do so long as you don't get caught. This is hardly a view anyone should be encouraging
Juno (AC Milan) 3 years ago
You are speaking for EPL. Blue.... Not UCL or any other european leagues.

And for your last point, you mean if you wanna cheat the system, do it openly? And that's encouraging? HUH?

You know Blue, at some point, I have to agree with you intentional booking is there all along, even if the manager did not instigate, the players might thought of it to be free to play in the important match. But no, whether or not it is intentionally or not, it should not be blatant. Read Mark's comments on the next page for a better answer he gave
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 3 years ago
Blue, what Wolves and Blackpool did is also cowardly, fielding a totally different line-up because you're convinced you don't stand a chance against ManU is just idiotic, I'm not sure I would want a guy like Mick McCarthy as my team's coach. And they also got punished, which is fine by me. But before, you and Matt were trying to compare SAF taking off Rooney in the 2nd part of the match to Mick changing all 10 outfield players for the match vs. ManU, so his first lineup is ready for the match after ManU. I'm sorry, but that's not even close. The Rooney thing is just a normal substitution and every manager has a right to rest his key players if they feel they've already done their job. I mean, you get 3 subs, and it's really up to you what you do with them
Adrianatorfire (Manchester United) 3 years ago
Sorry, could you please explain your what you meant a bit more clearly, I understand what you are trying to get at but the idea including Rooney is a bit muddled to me
Charlie (Barcelona) 3 years ago
It's within the rules so it's fair. Obviously it has been done before, but not as blatant as The Interpreter did it. People are more upset about the way he did it me thinks, its usually done with unnecessary tackles
Charliehenry (ryo miyachi) 3 years ago
"The Interpreter" LMAO, Its not a very sporting thing to do



   
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