Forums / The Stands: Intelligent Footy Debate
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Power Shift?
Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago

So with two English teams knocked out of the champions league in the groups and Arsenal having no chance of advancing past Milan, Chelsea is the only PL representative still left in Europe's biggest competition. Chelsea have been dismal recently, I really don't see them beating Napoli. So if there are no English teams that get past the first knockouts does it represent a shift in power to other leagues in world football? I know what some people will say that the prem de la prem was never really that powerful. Kind of hard to argue though when for three years straight, three of the four semifinalists were English. United were the only team to actually win the champions league in that spell, still it's a pretty powerful fact. The year before that streak started of course there was the miracle in Istanbul.

Now last year, Barca absolutely humiliated United in England. Milan thrashed thrashed! Arsenal yesterday, English teams just don't seem to be at the same caliber anymore and La Liga, Serie A, and the Bundesliga are coming more and more into prominence. The two real contenders for the balon d'or are in La Liga and what many consider to be the two best teams in the world are in La Liga. Juventus is still undefeated in Serie A this season I believe and could be a real threat for a champions league trophy next year, Milan are becoming a force again and though Inter are fading, Napoli, Udinese and Lazio are all quality sides. The Bundesliga may be the most entertaining league in the world right now, along with German national football it has transformed into an attacking, free flowing style of football that is easy on the eye. Munchen are always up there with the big boys in world football, but Dortmund didn't really make an impression in Europe this year and other than Bayern I really don't see any German club challenging for a champions league title. I don't watch that much German football though so I could be putting my foot in my mouth with that one.

I just feel like the English reign in Europe is very much coming to an end and has been for a while. The last three champions league winners have been outside England and will be again this year. Despite all the money in the English game and the super stars, the Premier League is falling short. Liverpool always does well in Europe but that is all hypothetical if we can't get into the top four. City were in a tough group, I expected them to advance but that was a f*****g tough group. United were in a weak group on paper, but I love FC Basel for knocking them out. Still doesn't bode well for the prem when the Champions of the league get knocked out in the group stage by a Swiss team. No disrespect to Basel at all I love that club now. I don't know what happened to Arsenal yesterday but they got absolutely stomped out by Milan, the scoreline could have been even worse. Chelsea again I don't see beating Napoli in the form there in.

Now United and City are still in the Europa League. If neither of them win that, I think big questions have to be asked about football in England right now. Don't get me wrong I love love love the premier league with all my heart, and it's still a league that is tough as hell. But why are English teams getting played off the pitch in European competition? Does anyone think Tottenham is good enough to challenge for a champions league trophy next year? I honestly think they are, on their day, but I don't see them going to places like the Camp Nou and winning a match, even if they play like gangbusters. United has it's weakest squad in years. City don't have the experience or chemistry to thrive in Europe, in my opinion. Liverpool are lacking consistency and that cut-throat mentality all good clubs need. Arsenal are floundering. Chelsea are too old. I just don't see it.

So my question to the people of footytube is, do you think the Premier League can regain it's clout and start at least surviving in Europe again? Do you think an English team will be in the final next year? Who do you think will get the final spot in the top four? And how does the FA fix the problem? Barca will be a dominant force for at least half a decade if not more. Madrid look like they could be challenging for Barca's throne and the Serie A looks to be getting back to it's glory days. Have your say and bring the forums back to life :)

Perhaps the turning point

And the knockout blow

LumpOfCelery (Chelsea) 4 years ago
Dude, Have you followed Napoli at all in the last two months? They have been just as worse as us, if not worse. You can make the argument that they will show their second face in the champions league, But the same can be said for us
Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Ya Ayyam I know and that's a good point. I am just saying if I were to put money on either team right now, I would put it on Napoli because Chelsea just don't seem to have it at the moment
[account-removed] 4 years ago
There is really no easy way out for the EPL, is there? I'll try and remain objective.

1) City: The amount of money they've put in, its always easy to attract a new player. But somehow, they always implode. Too many egos, right from their manager to their various stars. Still seem to have the best chance to do well in the champions league next year, as they can only improve on their performance. Mancini will get another year, and that might teach him more about his players. Plus, they won't have the tevez distraction.

2) United: Transition clearly written all over them. There are some youngsters pulling through, and some of the old guard still perform wonders, but Scholes, Giggs, Park.... These guys can't stay much longer. The newer purchases are still some way from being ready to challenge the likes of a threatening Milan, a dominant Barcelona or a rising Juve. They need 2-3 years of strong experience in the champions league to understand how to adapt to the stress, expectations and hype.

3) Tottenham: As a Spurs fan, I'm under no illusions that we'll go out and win the champions league or the title. That is media hype and nothing more. Next year, we'll need to make strong purchases in the striker and goal keeper department, and they'll need some time to gel. I can see us bravely reach the quarters or the semis if we click on the day, but to actually say we'd win against Barca is a long way off. We're still way too inexperienced and it's a long and tough road to keep our stars and improve the team along with the new stadium. A realistic opinion is that we'd do well to reach the knockout stage and finish top 4 next year and build on that.

4) Arsenal: Again, transition written on the team all over. They've got a lot of talented players, but a lot of youngsters who buckle under the stress as shown against Milan. The old guard looked disinterested, as if they knew they were going out and didn't put in a shift. This is unheard of in the Arsenal circles. It sounds like a massive cliche, but unless they keep RVP, they won't have the pull to attract bright talents. Their board is sending out all the wrong messages, as they keep failing to release the cash into Wenger's hands. Almost all their recent purchases are injury prone, which is an unfortunate turn of events. They'll need more Gervinho and Song like players, but the question remains if they'll get the funds. If they drop out of the champions league this year, they will struggle.

5) Chelsea: They haven't yet started the transition and that is what is scary for them. They're our last hope in the champions league this year, but they aren't our best hope. No offence to them, but AVB doesn't hold the fans nor the player's support. The old guard there are stronger than the manager, and its proven time and time again. Mourinho could never be replaced in the player's hearts and that is a major blow. They've now got to replace Malouda, Drogba, Kalou, Lampard and then the media's on them about Torres, irrespective of how he performs. If they fail to make the champions league, then will they have the same pull as they once did to attract people with money? It is a harsh world, but money still speaks. With the new spending restrictions, they'll need to do insanely well in the transitional phase. That also means they won't have the same effect as they did last year or the few years before that.

Liverpool, Newcastle.... These two teams are trying to make it into the champions league, but truth be told, they're not ready for it either. There really looks like there is no hope, unless a surprise is sprung up from somewhere. While we go through this phase, Serie A has been going through this for years and now look dominant. Bundesliga look extremely good as well. Real and Barcelona are always going to be threats.

The power indeed has shifted. We'll do well to hold onto those 4 possible champions league spots in 2 years time
Fabby (Arsenal) 4 years ago
I think people are getting carried away here, milan deservedly won, but for someone who watches both teams frequently, I can clearly say that wasn't arsenal playing last night. Absolutely denolished is too harsh againt a team that played a far cry from what they usually can. They didn't show up at all, I'm disgusted at being an arsenal fan right now. Getting demolished whilst trying is one thing, but a rout when your team is already staring down the barrell before kick off is disgarceful (drogba tone), there was no fight or will to win.
Also, this is a one off tbh, next year pl will come back stronger than this year, united sparred by the fact of what happened this year, city with a bit of luck in the groups will definetely be there, spuds have the quality they just need to find a good striker or keep adegaybor and us/chelsea is more of a transitional season with us being 'us' and chelsea trying to get to grip with avb style. I honestly don't see liverpool in champions league, they are very inconsistent (ironic coming from an arsenal fan) but they can't deliver againt the small teams and drop points too easily
HangTime (Chelsea) 4 years ago
United, City, Chelsea, and Arsenal will only grow from where they are now. Chelsea, Arsenal, and United are all playing at a lower level compared to last season or seasons before. Same for Liverpool.
Tottenham wouldn't sell their top players (Bale and Modric) showing that they want to compete for the title and become a bigger club. As long as they don't sell and only buy this summer, they will challenge for the premier league title and at least compete in the Champions League.

So I think that English football will regain their clout. City and United are both capable of being in the final next season. I hope that Chelsea will get the fourth spot. I don't think that Barcelona will dominate that much the next decade. When Xavi and Iniesta retire, who will replace them? Fabregas will do a fine job but who else?

Juventus bought a few players last summer and if they buy again this summer without selling, they will be a threat. Other teams like Napoli, Dourtmund, ect.... Will they hold on to their top players and build from that (cavani, lewandoski)? I can't see them buying good enough players to come in and help them compete in the Champions League. So I think that the 5-6 teams in England will continue to grow (financial fair play will probably prevent this) and the other clubs from the other countries will not grow much. Will Inter Milan become a top club again? So I think that England will later have around 2 teams in the final four Champions League again.

I rushed through this so not sure if anything make sense
Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago
No man it's a really good post I think we have to give the other teams a bit more credit but I see where you are coming from. Good point about Xavi and Iniesta, but I only see Messiah getting better and the guy can win matches with a piece of brilliance. Barca will certainly be trouble, and look at La Masia they won't have that big an ask to replace those two legends. Perhaps not on their level they are special players, but Barca's youth team is the best in the world.

I hope your right though, I would love to see Liverpool in the champions league soon but right now it is looking a bit bleak. As for Chelsea and United they will always be around, but I think there dominance in the last half decade or so is waning. City is interesting, we'll see how they do next year. Totts is a great side, but do they have it in 'em?

I don't know I do see a bit of a dip in England's performance in Europe for at least two or three years. Could be wrong and I hope I am, but the game is improving all over, the prem de la prem has it's back against the wall
LumpOfCelery (Chelsea) 4 years ago
Regarding who will replace who in Barca, I think they have great prospects that will keep them up in the top tier of europe for a very long time (Not CLs left, right and center).

And Iniesta-Xavi's replacement after Cesc is Thiago Alcantara
Sam6194 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Europe is huge pressure to take and english clubs not surviving hasn't anything to do with more or less quality, quality is the same, its just that premier league is under transition you would have seen so many top 4 contenders in last 2 seasons also villians where once a threat with martin oh niell....

Man city has to be a threat and were a threat this season but to play at those big stages you need to have players who have already played and handled pressure at those stages.... I mean liverpool didn't used to have any quality and yet used to pose major threat in europe just because liverpool have always been there and players like stevie, carra are big game players just like ryan giggs and scholes for man utd, you need players who handle the things and carry their team on their back....

And best example to exhibit that is arsenal no doubt they always play well in premier league but in champions league always fail to do something different.... They need players like henry, bergkamp or others who can you know induce spirit and CAN cheer UP players ON their OWN, I mean I have to go no far to search an example, stevie he can just score when liverpool needs the most and goal against olympiakos was the best example....

Same thing with chelsea no matter whatever quality they bring in at the end of the day players who can win them titles or the personality that can take their team up to their optimum level are always going to be the likes of terry, lampard, drogba, or essien....

And the thing that matters is how teams handles pressure, ALSO MAN UTD IS THE BEST example they have always produced their best when it matters, no matter trailing or leading. They have been under bit of a transition too and yet I think they haven't quite replced the quality of ronaldo(BIG GAME players), I think they need to bolster their midfield in order to make deep impact on europe.

But I can see man city being a major threat in europe its just a matter of time.... And I hope liverpool starts playing well at domestic level and battle it out at european stages.... And europe is going to be nothing new for us....
Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Haha no Sam Europe is nothing new for us and you make great arguments here, I am just saying seems like English dominance is coming to an end in Europe or has come to an end. Unthinkable a few years ago that no English team would get out of the round of 16, that's all I am getting at
Joeymac (Manchester United) 4 years ago
If anything, next season I think we'll be on the rise again.

I think you have to look at the competitiveness of the league, and over the past few years, the league itself has become more competitive. Clubs like City and Spurs are making pushes for the title, and clubs like Newcastle (hell, even Norwich is in the top half) are pushing for Europe.

I think the fact that the league itself is becoming more combative has hurt our club's chances in the Champion's League.... At least for the short term. Being a physically challenging league, players seem to get injured more in the PL, which hurts squad depth and chemistry. One reason why Barcelona is so good is that they have a small, solid squad, and usually play together (fit) all the time. That certainly helps when you translate over to Europe. In the PL, I think it's safe to say that generally there is more squad rotation.

So in conclusion, I think the toughness of the league will show more in Europe over the next few seasons. Either that, or we'll go in the opposite direction. It will be interesting to see
Donnchadh (Liverpool) 4 years ago
I mean I hope England is on the rise again Joey, but Italy is getting way way more competitive than it was a few years ago. Definitely City and Spurs are doing great domestically this year, but do you think they have the experience and the confidence to go far in Europe? I don't think they will make that big of an impact next year, I hope they prove me wrong and make a huge impact but against a team like Bayern, Barca, Madrid, Milan, Juve, I don't see them getting it done.

Not because they don't have the talent, but that they may not have the belief. Kompany, Yaya Toure, David Silva, these are all great men and great leaders on the football pitch, but the question is can they get their teammates to follow. Tottenham's shining moment was against Inter, but they still lost that game when Bale went ape. And even though they won the return leg at the Lane, Inter is not the same team anymore, they were already on the decline at that point.

So I hope they prove me wrong, and England is a force again next year. I think the prem very much can, still think it's the best league in the world, but it will be very tough
Joeymac (Manchester United) 4 years ago
You have to start somewhere, and Spurs for one should have the experience and confidence. Look at what they did last year in the champions league in their first time in, and the year before that, earning their place in the competition.

As for City, I've always said that their egos would crash their chances, but so far Mancini has done a better job than I originally thought he would by keeping all their stars under control. If they can continue, who knows how far City could end up going.

Right now, I think the league is in no-man's land. There is a big possibility of us dropping off and letting other leagues surpass us. But at the same time, there is huge potential for us to regain the prominence we had in Europe for the past 10 years. The remaining Europa and Champions League, and next year's competition, will give us a clearer view of what we have to look forward to

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