Forums / The Stands: Intelligent Footy Debate
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How Does Your Sport Compare?
Bisignani (Liverpool) 2 years ago
Just recently on the forums I confronted a problem that all americans have; the lack of physical play in european football. When I watch the eu football, nfl, nba, and nhl I am captivated by the punishing hits, acrobatic moves, and brillant play positioning. But eu football lacks what is most captivating, the punishing hits. I understand rules are rules. Obviously the use of hands are not allowed, but what about Kompany's pickpocket of a tackle? Why is there no referee discretion? And worst of all the diving has now spread into our beloved games, but no where near the same level. I'd rather see a player have tiny dogs bitting at his ankles and continue to run then see the shananigans pulled over seas. The champions league final last year was a disgrace. Any body check against Barcelona was considered a foul, and personally as an player and supporter of the sport, it was an abomination of man's greatess team sport. So as I mentioned in another post, americans will consider the sport to be second hand until men can start acting like men
TheBarcaShow (Footytube Staff) 2 years ago
Last years final a disgrace? You sure you watched it?
FootyRulz (Chelsea) 2 years ago
"americans will consider the sport to be second hand" So we should turn the entire sport into something that will satisfy some people who think the game isn't already physical enough?
LumpOfCelery (Chelsea) 2 years ago
Barca didn't dive at all in the final (with the exception of Busqets play acting)
PortYoder (Arsenal) 2 years ago
I hope it isn't you wearing that baseball shirt in your picture. Baseball doesn't exactly strike me as a physical and manly sport.

American football is pure athleticism, real football is meant to be pure skill. The sport is already about as physical as I can stand. I definitely agree that diving is really really annoying. I wouldn't say it is a disgrace. A defender bends the rules by giving the striker an elbow, it's fair that he responds by bending the rules by falling down easier than he should. It gets ridiculous when players act injured though.

NHL is everything ugly about footy jammed into one small, cold, and slippery rink.

Basketball is a great team sport (although the "team" part fades away in the pros). It is under control enough that people can take hard contact without getting too ugly. Its also annoying how height is such a HUGE factor!

Soccer is great because there is so much freedom to be creative with moves (Basketball lacks this because the ball has to be bouncing up and down the whole time) and passing combinations (A football(NFL) can only be thrown forward at the very beginning of the play). Footy is not limited by a gazilion rules like sports (rules can be good and bad), and flows better than any other sport I can think of. It can be ugly, but is a sight to behold when at its shining best!
Volpz (Arsenal) 2 years ago
100% agree, well written
Juno (AC Milan) 2 years ago
First and foremost, it's not your sport his sport. It's the World's most popular sport. We probably don't care much if its secondary in USA or Indonesia. If you love the sport, you wouldn't care if its the most popular before supporting and loving it.

EU football? What? No. Football is in America. South and North. Football is in Europe. Football in Asia. Middle east. Down Under. It's not eu football. The rules are the same. The consequence(injuries) are the same. The supports are tremendous.

You wanna physical play? How much do the clubs have to pay those broken legs players when they go 3-5 months injured out on the sidelines because someone attempted a dangerous tackles? And some clubs barely survive financially even if their players are healthy. And by clubs I don't mean the 5 % of the clubs that you might know. Its the 95% of the rest of the world that will struggle to survive if their players go out taking a break while the clubs pay them for their 'rest'.

And for your information, your american sports that's so bloody 'exciting' that pay ridiculous money for its players to take the punishment. There's only so 'many' of these clubs in US. You are able to pay because of the small number of clubs that is playing the sport. Tell that to the millions of football clubs in the world to pay that? Maybe one signed contract from a NFL player is enough to feed 10-100 small size football club players for a number of years. Nobody wants to take that bloody few hundreds to thousand dollars to get crippled for a number of years. Footballer's tackles normally aimed at your feet. Getting niggling injuries that required pain killers is one thing. Getting crippled is another. There are too many players in the world that retires prematurely from the game because they can't pay for the medical fees to nurse their injuries.

And seriously, we football fans don't care much about these american NFL, NHL. Charging at the full speed to try to break your colleague's bones? Nah. In football, OUR football, fans will much prefer a clean cut sliding tackle that take away the ball from your opponents and doesn't take their foot away from them...

Btw, I saw you put NBA there? You serious that charging an opponent in NBA is not a foul? How about just swiping/slapping at the opponents' wrists? Is that a foul? Captivating? Punishing hits? You sure?

You wanna watch physical sport? Watch UFC. Watch WWE scripted entertainments. They are captivating. They allow physical punishments. These athletes take home millions. They can retire after some 5 10 years of hard work. Same goes for NFL and NBA players pay salary. A footballer's salary at the EU's top league? He still needs to find a job after his 35s. Ask Gary Neville, ask Guardiola, ask Redknapp. Who doesn't need? There's only so many elite players in this world that earns as much as an american sport players earn. This tiny little group of elite players can afford to break their leg and not sweat anymore for the rest of their life, but not everyone in the top flight have that luxury.

You are captivated by the punishing hits, acrobatic moves, and brillant play positioning? Football has them. It's just that football don't condone violence. Hence the straight red for a wild tackle that's considered dangerous to a colleague, a yellow to warn players of their tackles/attitude. Every sports have rules. Can NFL punch their opponents if they are not happy? Now isn't that a rule? Should NFL fans clamour for the sport to allow punching out at opponents? And allow discretion?
Acrobatic moves? We have them. Brilliant play positioning? Lots. In fact football can be said as the evolving game. Every era's play is different. Play positioning changes, position changes, tactics changes, formation changes. You don't need violence play or physical play to appreciate that. Watch the sport until you are aged old, and think back on the differences the sport that would let you enjoy.

Kompany's tackle is two footed. Whether he tackled or nit-pick the ball then is secondary. A two footed wrong timed will almost always injured a fellow colleague. Is that what you wanna see? Nani injured for the rest of the season? The thing is , almost all professional players know that a two footed lunge tackle is a dangerous thing to do , and the consequence is almost always a red. Yet Kompany still does it.

Lastly. I would agree if you said Barca theatrics last year during the Classico at times borders on ridiculous. But Real Madrid's killer tackles that are hell bent on injuring and stopping play isn't anymore beautiful. And Barca players has no need for theatrics against Man Utd last UCL final. They outclassed them. Man Utd players can't even get close enough to tackle their players.

And for your title of this thread. Our sport compares favorably. Maybe not financially on per club basis(because there are so many clubs in the world) but at least money in the game on the whole and the support. Our supports for the World game would dwarf any others.

And finally.




Without gears and protections. Physical play? Oh yeah. You haven't broke you feet before. I know.
Bisignani (Liverpool) 2 years ago
Injuries happen in every sport. Maybe if futbol players had upper body strength they wouldn't romp the playing field like their mother died when an opposing player bumps into them.

Your response is like a child nit picking at anything I say and turning it into whatever suits you. Read it carefully and give a concise response, not a chapter on why your pissed bc I'm american and "we like to see people fight eachother"
Zlatan94310 (PSG) 2 years ago
"Lack of physical play in eu football"?!

My Friend, I suggest you to get fit, travel to england and take part in pre-season "training sessions" and "matches" of a non-league english team for example. So you can experience the physical side of Football, not bloody soccer you ignorant!
Juno (AC Milan) 2 years ago
@Bis, first thing first, if you create this thread under "off topic", and talk about all the greatness in the US sports, I wouldn't even care to go in to take a look. But you came into the footballing community and proclaim football's weaknesses in comparison with your sport my sport his sport. And you expects support without rebuttal for that? And after I argue my stand, you can't take a debate instead of complaining my answer is not concise? Oh sorry. That's how I argue. Precise. Not concise. Accurate to my limited knowledge. Not general. And always against your words and what you wrote. And Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Here, you are putting down OUR football/futbol/(or soccer) in favor of the more stoppages(yeah, lots of it), more punishing(what? Back to the 70s and 80s when stupid tackles almost chopped off Maradona's leg? Or forced Marco Van Basten into early retirement? DO you even know football history? That in the 70s to 80s that rough tackles are not frown upon and caused many to exit the game early?), and arguably boring game. Sorry, but football fans don't want to see their club players sit out on the sidelines taking s**t load of cash. We pay them indirectly, We want to see them playing. BTW, We have lots of Americans here and they utterly love the sport. They are great fans to have here.

And for your information. Football clubs at the top level does have their own state of the art gyms and so forth. They train their upper body strengths to take reasonable body checks(how else can Messi or Giggs with their frail physics sstill manage to hold onto the ball while being body checked? You think their natural balance held them? Nooooo. It's hours and hours off workouts in the gym.) But OUR game is based more on the techniques, not on some pure brute strength to bring down your opponents. This is a game for all sizes. Not just for big size human being. You can exploit your strengths of course, if you are strong(like Drogba), but overzealous challenges that bumped opponents onto the grounds without due care for their opponents body doesn't makes that a fair challenge. Hence a FOUL if you don't know that. Every single bumps that you take is taking toll on your body. Like I said. Without protections(shin guards? They break. I've broken a few. Cost me a few hundreds in total for replacements. Upper body? Zilch.) a simple stomp on your feet will send you sprawling on the floor like your whole family died.

Football needs to stamp out diving no doubts. But that has nothing to do with the physical play. If you are hurt, you are hurt. Its bad enough that you are suffering the pain, but worse still get sticks for showing it.

Most players get paid to play football. They don't make mental preparation that their legs get sweep off like a hockey stick met the ball. NFL footballers knew what was coming and prepared for . They trained their already big size bodies and work their socks off to endure these, while leaving out the pathetically small build guys out of their games, and makes sick jokes that these guys can't take the hits. Oh yeah right. You are so right. Don't wear protective clothes. Even Rugby doesn't make those bone shattering charges at opponents. Try charging at Rugby players with NFL style of tackles without gears. You'll kill the fellow. (The show Sportsscience proved that taking a full charge by a NFL player is like taking a hit from a car. 3 times more powerful charge force than a rugby tackle). OUR game is made for everyone. Anyone. Rugby and football can be played by anyone. Anywhere. Without the need for killer tackles to show that its a man's game. Sorry. Women can play this game. Children loves the sport. Football has no nationality differences. No size differences. I don't care if you are American, Singaporean or Russian. Black whites or asians. We welcome you to immerse yourself in our game without thinking that all freaking sports need to take bone shattering hits before calling itself a man's game. Enjoy the sport in the way it is.complain the sport's rules and unfair rulings.compare the sports? No thanks. We love ours. You can watch your MLB Red Sox and NFL.

Oh. Is that why you support Liverpool? Because of Red sox connections? Hang on.... That's not a man's sport. No physical damages to the body! Eeek
Bisignani (Liverpool) 2 years ago
My brother is the red sox fan. I'm from philadelphia so I like the phillies. Ever watch pete rose?

PortYoder (Arsenal) 2 years ago
Oh please, you have to be a gigantic idiot if you honestly believe baseball is even kind of a physical sport! Any ounce of respect I held for your opinion just threw itself out the window. Do know how rare any form of physical contact with another player is in baseball.come on!
[account-removed] 2 years ago
Haha, baseball physical? Please.... Simple, if you want physicality, go watch ufc. Football snot for you. There, argument over, its not that hard...
HangTime (Chelsea) 2 years ago
I think Bisignani just meant that European football is not as physical as how Americans play soccer. Just like how many players/fans/people will agree that English football is more physical than Spanish ball.

I'm from America and I do agree that American soccer is more physical than in Europe. But in my opinion, I think that's why American soccer is not up there with European Football. Americans are more about size, strength, and physique than other countries, when countries like Spain, Brazil, and Argentina are a lot about skills. Americans don't really possess the ball so they lose it alot and have to fight for it a lot. As a result, they have to get more physical always having to fight for a 50/50 ball (watch mls). Just my two cents....

Of course, my English friends will disagree though. In college I played with a few players from Holland, England, Brazil, ect. When the English players first arrived to my college, they were talking about how they got to get use to how physical Americans play soccer. But then, one of the English guy will later complain about how he gets a yellow card for everything he do. That he has gotten more yellow cards in one season in America than he did his whole life in England. The English boys were very physical. But maybe it's just b/c I'm a very small person.
Juno (AC Milan) 2 years ago
Hangtime, football can be very physical during the 80s and 90s...

Spanish



Epl



If this is what Bis is clamouring for, then he ought to change channel. I rather watch beautiful technique/dribbles, subtle passing and outrageous shots. Not body checks, killer tackles or "a player have tiny dogs bitting at his ankles and continue to run then see the shananigans pulled over seas.(sic)"

I agree what you wrote overall though.I know not all americans think like that. But to be criticising footballers(and football on the whole) for not taking enough "punishments" in order to be the most pop sport in US, I think thread starter has got that thinking wrong. Football still allows for tackling. Sliding tackles and all. But if the referee blows for a harsh body check, or dangerous tackles, abide by it. Its not our body that's taking the punishments. Respect the rulings of the refs. Afterall, lenient referees mostly ends up losing control of the match as players will get more physical and cynical if they finds that they will not get book for rash tackles.


I meant, with this happening in US, wouldn't you be worried that someone actually enjoys physical football?




Should this Steve Zakuani still "shananigans pulled over seas(sic)"?

PortYoder (Arsenal) 2 years ago
I'm an american as well and I think hangtime put it very well. We play the sport in totally the wrong way. If you came and watched my highschool team play you would wonder if they'd ever watched a match before (They have). My coach rewards toughness and athleticism above skill, which means my skills in possession aren't worth crap to him. I only wish people could understand how the sport is meant to be played
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 2 years ago
Be assured, no one will shed a tear because Americans don't find football (eu football, what the hell is that?) "manly enough". Let them stick to their awesomely brutal american football, where the players are real men, but have to wear helmets and protection
Bisignani (Liverpool) 2 years ago
The title is not a thesis or an opening paragraph. It is an attention grabber, which maybe has done its job.

@Juno. Accuaracy/percision is great, but I'm not reading your entire post. I don't enjoy reading someone's long personal statement. I love the sport as well. I play it in my basement and else where all the time. Futbol is all about balance and agility to stay on your feet. There is no way messi spends constructive time with upper body workouts. BTW all your videos was disgusting and you couldn't be further away from what this thread is about. Sorry if you were confused by the difference of malicious tackles and physical play. For Kompany debate I want to see referee discretion, like a police officer would use.

@Markodon. NFL = nation football league. Or.... American football. So, you watch/play eu football, or soccer as we call it. American football and EU football is totally different sports. For less confusion I say futbol.

@Hangtime. Thank you for have reason and understanding. Your post is exactly my point of this discussion.

I want to see for body checks and players staying on their feet because they can!
Juno (AC Milan) 2 years ago
Sorry. Body checks are fine. But all professional footballers need to train certain time in the gym . Its pretty standard. Without a tough upper body strength, whatever low centre of gravity, balance is useless because you don't have the strength to take the blow. Agility is has nothing of use in a body check resistance.

Top level Football is not all about balance and agility. Its much more than that. Training is not just out on the field. Not just working out the tactics. Things like strength needed equipments to train. Its not like grassroot level where our sunday league games can be trained by a 2 hours session out on the field every other day. Juventus gym is almost 10 -12 times the size of my company's gym. If Barca fails to have an equivalent, they wouldn't be able to compete physically.Until you have the physiques, you shouldn't be out on the field to work on your speed, tactics and passing etc. Some Man Utd gym info.


Link: therepublikofmancunia.com/chicharito-i-go-to-the-g...


Link: www.football365.com/photo-gallery/7034553/Man-Unit...

Barca






You keep putting kompany case up saying discretion is needed. What discretion I ask? Glen Johnson should be sent off in the subsequent Liverpool man city match as well. Allowing malicious(two footed) tackles is promoting them.

And football at the top level has lots of body checks. Lots of people carried on. Not every body check on an opponent meant a player will go down. If you only you would watch properly. Most "players stay on their feet because they can!" You are just magnifying the numbers of those who fell over in a single match. They are loads of body checks going on in a single match. Not every single one resulted in a fall, not every single one is given a foul once they fell.

And your title is not the thing that dissed ppl. It's this line: "americans will consider the sport to be second hand until men can start acting like men". Don't speak as though America is the most important country for sports to flourish. Yes it's an important market. But with that you kinda implied that without USA, the sport is just secondary in everyone's mind. I think real fan won't take that lying. I prompt you before. Enjoy the sport the way it is. It doesn't have to be physical. Football style is different region to region. Appreciate the skills and the gameplay. Not compare with NFL or other American products
FootballForever (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Hardly any Americans view it as a second hand sport. Go to Seattle, Portland, Chicago or Houston and you will see HUGE amounts of support for the game, especially in Seattle and Portland, where it's ranked as the top sport. Also all around the nation, support it spreading like a wildfire.
Also calling hits in the NFL "punishing" is a joke, it's mostly fat people running into each other like sumo wrestlers
Borg (Manchester United) 2 years ago
I am American and, I think, I have a good perspective on this. I've played soccer my entire life but I've also played one of the most dangerous contact sports as well, ice hockey. I don't know how much experience you have playing soccer but I've played at very high levels including college soccer. I can say with complete confidence that soccer is a contact sport. In the United States particularly, I've noticed the contact aspect is much higher than in technical favoring countries like Spain or Portugal. In matches I've played in players never go down easy. Period. If somebody isn't trying to keep their feet or going down easy they are instantly labeled as a diver and will be harrassed and jibed as such for the remainder of the match. I would recommend watching the more physical leagues, the Scottish Premier League being, by far, the most physical in Europe. Also, the EPL and Championship are quite physical. If you want to see players at war with each other watch a Celtic v Rangers match, it's incredible.

It's difficult to compare sports like soccer to hockey/football. A good example I have is a good friend who has always given me s**t about soccer, commenting on the diving, theatrics, etc. Well he went out and played with the boys and was on the receiving end of a slide tackle. He is very fit, but he ended up being unable to train (long distance running) for over 2 weeks. This challenge was hard but fair. There is much more to soccer than meets the eye. Look at the body types of the players compared to NFL. In the NFL and hockey they wear pads as well. Soccer players don't have the fast twitch muscles of a football player, it's uneccessary. They also don't get 30 second breaks after a play.

The reason body checks are not allowed or 2 footed studs up tackles is because it decreases the entertainment value of the sport. The majority of people today want to see creativity, speed, agility, tactics; so the rules cater to that. If they were allowed, no club in the world would be able to keep up with all the injuries, it's simply impossible. I think the problem is you want to see certain elements of sports that YOU like implemented in another sport. It's a bit arrogant really. I would love it if the NFL was more fluent like Rugby, but I'm an outsider and a minority in that thinking. Every sport goes through stylistic changes. If you watch a match from the 70's or 80's it was much more physical. You should watch more soccer and if you don't bring other sports into your viewing, you will find certain qualities that you can appreciate
CFLNHLFIFAFAN (Chelsea) 2 years ago
I love hockey (NHL), CFL(Canadian Football, like NFL), and soccer football, I really love EPL and Chelsea and watching them play and stuff. I being a hockey fan my whole life, I live In Canada so being a fan of NHL so long, and now my city has got NHL team back and can go to games and love it, its amazing atmosphere seeing it live, I love it on TV too, but now that I have chance to see games live its even better, same with CFL I have being fan since kid of my team in my city, its also got great atmosphere. As for Chelsea, I haven't being a fan of them as long as NHL teams or CFL, but a few years I followed them, now last season and this season I really being huge huge fan, I watch every game I can, skip school for games and stuff, its amazing to see EPL, great league, and Champions League amazing to see on HD tv and stuff. Love seeing that football, and Chelsea, and kinda wish I lived in Europe, especially London England and could see all stadiums and go to games, be amazing atmosphere. But its nice in Canada to see all those leagues too, but would be amazing to be over there and see Chelsea!
PortYoder (Arsenal) 2 years ago
Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham all in one city! It really would be great to visit wouldn't it
CFLNHLFIFAFAN (Chelsea) 2 years ago
Markodon (NK Dinamo Zagreb) 2 years ago
Agreed
MancYank (Manchester United) 2 years ago
I'm an American, and I love football(proper football of English origin). I would disagree that what turns US sports fans away from European football is a lack of physical hits. I think less US sports fans are interested in European football simply because the USA has such popular and storied professional sports that are of American origin. Our sports are part of our social fabric, just like football clubs in England and Europe. The A League in Australia has supporters, but nothing compared to the Aussie Rules football clubs. The massive embrace of "soccer" in America is due to the fact that a kid doesn't have to be 6'2" and 190lbs to make the team. Not so with American Football or Basketball. True American footy fans love European football - one only needs to see how many football TV channels there are now in the US, compared to 10 years ago. Peace to all my international football brothers
Bisignani (Liverpool) 2 years ago
3-4 months later and position has changed slighty. I'm not interested in talking about secondary points that some have raised, I want to stick to the iussue I initially posted about. What can be so intriguing and affectinally revieling about sports is their differences. I proclaimed the title of the sport to be "futbol" but in truth that does not matter. Just like it does not matter if there is no excessive physical contact. Given recent studies by the NFL and concussions, I'd say that "futbol" is better off, especially for the youth. Regardless, the points I made may have some credibility, but at this moment in time the sport far exceeds our expectations every year, and that is what matters most. The game will never lose its flair, acrobatic moves, or amazing team work. It may have lost some of its honesty a long the way, but footy will always be a game of evolution for the indivisual and the team. My propostion.... Please debate any point I make, but at the same time, please support. Just like in footy, in order to win you need to work as a team, and considering we're at the same online space lets work as a team
Alexinho (AC Milan) 2 years ago
I am confused? Are you speaking of the questions you raised in your first comment because all I see is a comment about how there are not enough physical contact in football played in Europe.

"But eu football lacks what is most captivating, the punishing hits. "

Then one question about the tackle of Kompany and another question referee discretion.

Is these the questions you refer to? I am going to assume it is in order to make a reply even though I feel we all would be better off if you go back to watching american eggball (if you don't want to call our sport football, then I take the right to call the american version by another suiting name as well)



First question, I disagree that this is the most captivating side of the sport. I rather watch fighting sports if I want to see this. Football I prefer to see high level technique combined with good passing and great finshing leading to goals. Also called Brazil

2nd question about Kompany, this is one of those in the grey zones who sometimes get penalized and other times ignored. The thing is that it is a potential dangerous game and depending on the degree of the danger, it will be penalized with different actions (freekick/freekick+warning/freekick+yellow/freekick+red/freekick+additional disciplinary action towards the fouler)

This is to minimize the risk of players get long term injury and make sure the penalizing of those who choose use of dirty play in order to win their matches are greater than the gain from doing so.

We can discuss each incident individually and perhaps this time it was the wrong call to give a red as it was a clean one this time, the reason it was given was that the referee judged it to be a potential leg breaker if it had hit the player and not the ball (even when a clean tackle is been done)

On your third question. Well I think it depends on the referee in charge, some are better than others and that will always be the case when we use humans to referee
BeefCurtains (Limerick) 2 years ago
*skis through topic naked*
Achiox (Manchester United) 2 years ago
On the same wavelength, this entire thread is really just an "apples and oranges" debate!



   
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