Forums / The Stands: Intelligent Footy Debate
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Blind Loyalty At Anfield?
Peteko 4 years ago
Actually my respect for Liverpool has gone up one notch seeing that they are giving Kenny the time that he needs to build a successful team.

Yes, maybe they are being as generous with him as they were impatient with Roy, but motives aside I think the decision to keep him should be applauded.

And I agree that the League Cup or the FA finale don't make up for being 8th or 9th in the League and all in all it has been a shitty season. Especially when you think that Everton had a nightmare start with no kitty at all, but rather having to let Arteta go among others. So for Everton to finish above well-spending Liverpool it must sting like hell. But they should stick with Kenny and let him see his team blend and grow.
I doubt the fans will stay mum if Liverpool are not in the Top 5 next season
Addisse (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Here is another blind liverpool fan, KD is the best!
TotheArsenal (Arsenal) 4 years ago
I think its funny that liverpool fans posting don't agree with him. Kind of proves his point
Slenderass (Liverpool) 4 years ago
I agree with him! And you, what you said earlier in reply to the other bloke
M1012Bet (Barcelona) 4 years ago
Past successes aside, the fact is there's a lack of top class manager in Europe in general. Every good ones are at Europe challenge clubs. And I doubt the likes of up and coming includes AVB will want to take the poisonous chalice of Anfiedl bench
Slenderass (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Well, there is Fabio Capello. If he could be tempted away from London I'd have him for us. He has said he wants to manage in England with a big club - if Chelsea keep Di Matteo then there isn't another job on offer really, so I reckon if he was promised a decent transfer kitty he might be tempted, and I also think he'd get the existing players playing a lot better. I know he didn't inspire with England, but he's won titles with 4 different teams - every one he has managed - 9 titles in total. Excluding Mourinho and Guardiola whose achievements are phenomenal but are still in their relative early years of management, there is only really Hitsfeld and Ferguson who have achieved at the top level in the best leagues for so long
Corn (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Citeh had spent over 100m in the last 3 years and they just won fa cup. It took time for their players to gel in and perform at the level they're playing right now.

Slenderass (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Erm.... Yes, but they progressed enormously each season. We are going backwards. And we didn't win the FA cup
Minabotros (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Man United_ 2nd Place + No Silverware => Great Season
Liverpool_ 8th Place + 1 up in the bag+ 2nd cup possible => Horrible season?

The Math doesn't add up!

Teams should exist to win silverware (regardless of its prestige), not to make money or to qualify for competitions that they get booted out from in the group stages!

In the end Liverpool got more out of this season than any of the other 18 EPL clubs not in first place (with maybe Chelsea being the only unlikely exception)
Araz (Queens Park Rangers) 4 years ago
You are joking aren't you?

You think 8th place (at best) plus the Carling Cup is better than 2nd place? I guarantee you wouldn't be saying that if the roles were reversed in fact you'd be mocking United for winning the Micky Mouse tournament that most the other teams use to field their youth teams
Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
He's saying if United come second and win nothing (looks likely), he would rather have one or two more trophies in the cabinet.

If someone had said to me before the season had started that by the end we would be in two Wembley cup finals, have a place secured in Europa league, and have beaten United, City, Chelsea (twice), Everton (three times), Newcastle etc over the course of the season, I would have grabbed it with both hands as compared to what Liverpool have gone through under Hicks & Gillette.

ANd while you roll out the old chestnuts that teams play their youth in the Carling Cup, here's the city squad we faced

25 Hart
02 Richards
05 Zabaleta
06 Lescott
13 Kolarov
15 Savic (Aguero - 46')
18 Barry
19 Nasri
21 Silva
34 De Jong (Johnson - 78')
10 Dzeko

Araz (Queens Park Rangers) 4 years ago
Come on really? You think teams (apart from one or two who have nothing else to play for) take this competition seriously? I mean even the team above is only half of City's first team. Here's the team United played in the QF:

40 Amos
06 Evans
12 Smalling
20 Fabio Da Silva (Fryers - 37')
21 Rafael (Pogba - 64')
13 Park Ji-sung
25 Valencia
28 Gibson
09 Berbatov (Morrison - 46')
27 Macheda
32 Diouf

And if I recall the Semi include Liverpool and 2 Championship sides! I really do want Liverpool to get back amongst the top 4 where they belong but let's not spend time polishing turds, they'll still be turds and our hands will get all dirty.
TotheArsenal (Arsenal) 4 years ago
The only reason a team exists is to be the best. 2nd is better than 8th. And liverpool is a cup team. The only reason those tournaments exist is to give teams that won't win the prem something to cheer for. If I were a liverpool fan, these cups would mean nothing to me over champions league qualification
Araz (Queens Park Rangers) 4 years ago
Oh and for the record, that will now be one Carling Cup, and 8th place at best in the league. If anyone is still arguing they'd rather have that than finish second in the league, then I guess as a few have already said, that sort of proves one of the points of the article at least
Slenderass (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Minabotros - The math certainly does add up. We spent ball park one hundred mil and are what, 35 points or more from the top? United look likely to lose the title on goal difference, which United fans will tell you they don't think is a great season because they are so used to winning. But the truth is, with their board, lack of spending since Ronaldo left and ageing squad, for them to be on the same points as city who have spent a tremendous amount of money and probably have the third best squad in Europe, that is an amazing achievement by Alex Ferguson, much as I can't stand the manky old git. No other manager in Europe would get nearly as many points with Michael Carrick in the middle. It is absurd to think any of you are trying to defend the idea that finishing 8th, having stumbled to a dreadful one all draw with Cardiff to get a trophy, is as good as finishing second, level on points with one of the best teams on the planet. Defend Dalglish by all means, there are points to be made in his favour, but that certainly isn't one of them
Sam6194 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
When club is finally coming back to its feet why is it so that liverpool fans are not criticising kenny as much as others are....

Does liverpool plays good compared to last season? BIG YES

Does they have enough bench strength compared to last season? YES

Have they created more chances then last season? YES

I mean why are we under so much of the scrutiny every time, we already won a cup, yes the cup which people now a days think is of no importance but come on participating in three tournaments and reaching in 2 finals....

Beating man city and chalsea in carling cup, beating man utd in fa cup I mean its not like we had a piece of cake winning or reaching finals in either of the tournaments.... Yes our league form have been awful but that does not mean we have to overlook what kenny have brought to the team unity and team spirit, hunger for titles.... How many times have you seen liverpool participating and taking every tournaments seriously.... Not certainly since half a decade....

When was the last time that we had enough players that can make it to the fist team, when we had lost lucas and gerrard for almost half the season.... M not making an excuse cos we have already spent 100 mn pounds but come on unless you experiment you can't know what you are upto and every manager have the track record of bringing in players and not delivering it to the expected level.... That does not mean kenny is the man who made blunders.... We where under so much of the transition so many players where being brought and where getting sold.... But finally we are making our way out of that s**t hole that hodgson made and went away....

The only thing that m not happy with kenny is he sometimes chooses too awkward squad, some late substitution that's it.... But when you look at the bigger picture of what he is trying to bring back to this club of football then those things doesn't matter....

Plus we always had some player complaining under last 2 managers benyoun and riera where not happy with rafa, johnson and agger almost left the club under roy.... Not this time every one is happy though disappointed with their performances but certainly there is no breach in the relationship with the manager....

All in all I would love to have dalglish at least for couple of season b4 I even think of sacking him and I think by that time every one of us will get our answers....
Juno (AC Milan) 4 years ago
I came in with the intend of saying the same 3 questions, -"
Does liverpool plays good compared to last season? BIG YES

Does they have enough bench strength compared to last season? YES

Have they created more chances then last season? YES"

And I agree with them all.

The main issue this latter half season is that the team concedes almost every single time opponents take a shot. Regardless if its a pot shot from far, or cross and hit, Liverpool got nailed every single time you bet that the defence should get there first. I know how fans might be saying Agger and Skrtel are the best pairing and that Carra is being phase out, the point here is knowing how untidy the back four have been, and that Agger(being unhealthy so often) is not someone you should depend on. Next season, they need to source for someone to do the job in the middle, sort out the defence, think clearly with their available resource, should they play deeper to help their defse? Or Get someone mobile and technical so that they can carry on dictating possession upfront.

And apart from the stupidly blind support that Dalglish afforded Suarez, I say Dalglish have done well in the dressing room. The support for him is still obvious. The players run for him. If you know your manager have the support of the team, he should stay.

And coming back to the 3 questions that you answered. Liverpool are doing good, but they really need to put some faith in Carroll, and stop leaving Suarez as the main man as he can be put to better use as a second striker or inverted winger with his ability to ghost past defenders.
Sam6194 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Now these are the points to be discussed I mean the problem is technical and about players being used in right formation.... And instead of dalglish being questioned about his future he should be questioned when is going to play the players where they really belong....

I really think that players are never to be blamed if they are not used in right formation....

1.)carroll being played, there are no quality crosser in our squad apart from aurelio and gerrard, gerrard did what he can do but aurelio can certainly make carroll change his dimensions and he can make him more lethal, and I have been crying to play him since he got fit.... So where are the players who can deliver quality crosses....

2.)wingers, bellamy plays on left and downing on right WHY? Will they ever deliver good crosses with their unnatural feet....

3.)defence was a huge question when season started and completely agree with what you have said we need some stability in back 4.... And for that I would say when we started so badly in pre-season friendlies, always leaking goals I meagerly had any confidence but I really appreciate the way they have picked up since then, , but then our concern is to get back to top 4 so not good enough anyway but I really think coates needs few starts and prepare him for playing regularly, need one big center back I guess one will be brought anyway cos carra is fading with time quickly....

Also wanted to elaborate a bit on "Liverpool got nailed every single time you bet that the defence should get there first" well I wouldn't say that we have been the best at defending but we are 2nd in conceding least goals this season, though this problem looks bigger cos we really haven't scored, everything comes in the end to hitting THE crossbars AND creating chances which ended UP doing nothing.... But certainly if we are counting carra out of equation(which he certainly will in few seasons) then we need one defender....

We need some edge upfront someone like torres you know who can share the responsibilities with suarez cos suarez creates and he has to score all by himself, instead we needs some one who can really poach the ball down....

So some changes are needed some more signings are required and one more season I guess and stability will come along....
Matt (Footytube Staff) 4 years ago
So you are saying that Kenny is the right man for the job BUT he is playing all the players he bought, out of formation or not giving them the support they need?
Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
You seem to know best Matt, lets leave it at that
Sam6194 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
List of what we lost the day roy stepped in?

Playing horribly, no formation at all just playing like headless chickens player loosing their interest in managers players LIKE f*****g koncehsky AND poulsen CAN proudly say they where once part of this football club.... Players in the dressing room threatening to leave the club.... And its a big deal for new manager to settle this things down.... Which dalglish passed with flying colors....

List of what we gained gained when dalglish stepped in?

1.)started playing good, players like suarez and enrique where signed young prospect in the form of coates came in, players like flanno, robinson, spearing got nurtured....

2.)title came back never the less(please don't retaliate yes it was carling cup).... Hopefuolly 2nd in making

3.)gained some bench strength....

AND THIS I SAY IS THE f*****g 1ST STEP toward being better AND growing ON TO THIS....

Now comes optimizing the things which has been quite a headache what players to play and how to play.... So my complaints are about these things.... Which compared to the first problem is negligible.... And I expect us to come good in next season....

It takes bit of time to make the things stable and that holds the key for the future success, so if people are calling us to have blind faith in our club then that's their problem and I would suggest them to be a liverpool fan for a second and then think....

All what liverpool fans want is to have continuity and stability and kenny is red to the core that guy will serve this club passionately and he is a winner by himself....

I hope I have made my selves more clear....
Sam6194 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Just wanted to add 1 more point on the signings of downing and carroll....

As I saw someone comparing downing and young, young already scoring and proving himselves worthwhile that is bcos he went to the club which has been served by the manager for 25 long yrs that means things are smooth as silk, where as liverpool where desperately digging deep to make their mark this season and thus I say if players where not able to make their mark then as I said b4 stability IS THE problem.... Let dalglish reach that phase(2-3 season I say) let him implement the things he wants to then we'll talk about failure and success of the player being signed....
Gerrard4ever (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Juno, a lot of the untidiness in the back four has been down to protection being offered by the midfielders. Lucas' injury has been a big factor this season as we didn't have a replacement of his quality. Also a lot of the losses and goals we have conceded recently have come during a period Agger was injured. Like you said, we probably shouldn't be dependent on Agger but this year his injuries have been broken ribs. They haven't been muscle injuries which kept him out in the past so I am more optimistic for his availability next season. The major fault in the defence has been inclusion of Carra by Kenny. Coates should have really been given the game time to improve.

Other than I agree with everything you said, its good to know there are still people who can still see the positives instead of the just the negatives in a awful league campaign
Juno (AC Milan) 4 years ago
@Gerrard4, sure its ribs this year, but the past couple of years? Agger has gone missing chunks of the league every single year. That's bad for the team, because he's deem the best of the lot right now. Like I said, if Liverpool can only pray hard for his well-being without buying some "insurance", then it will be the same scenario next year. And while Lucas injury has shown us another issue in this Liverpool squad - there's no one in the squad as good as him in breaking up play and protecting the backfour. That means getting backups.

Attacking wise, they might just be awfully unlucky this year. Next year, everything might just fall into place. Have faith in Carroll. He a very good target man - strong, able to hold up play, set up plays. Playing Suarez who's not exactly a target man in the centre is just weird. All the more weirder is that the squad has a lot of crosser, very few through pass champions(except Gerrard), so from where I'm looking at, having Suarez on the flanks cutting in with Carroll keeping the defenders busy make sense. I really do hope Dalglish puts a bit more faith in this fella
Schoty91 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
I would just like to comment on something.... After reading all the comments on here, I think it is futile for us to defend our current situation. I by no means agree with the criticisms of Kenny that supporters from other clubs have expressed. I simply want to state these are tough times for our club, we are in transformation phase which has stagnated due to some unfortunate incidents (Lucas injury, Suarez suspension to name a few....). I love my club and always will, but I will concede that Kenny and Co have a lot of work to do this summer if we are to return to the great heights that we have always aspired to - with or without winning the FA this season.

Should Kenny be sacked? I don't think so. There have been many occasions (lost count) this season where his tactics have frustrated me but I also understand that the squad has entirely changed from the previous year.

So to my fellow Reds fans, don't worry too much about articles such as these, enjoy watching our boys play for the rest of the season. To everyone else, you have not seen the last of liverpool fc.... It may not be next year but it will definitely not be far away
Soundslikefail (Arsenal) 4 years ago
I suppose it makes sense to me to stop caring about your league position once you've secured European football next season, and yes, I would have loved Arsenal to win a trophy this year, but it doesn't change the fact about the decline Liverpool is in. Not just from last year, but ever since Liverpool managed that excellent second place finish, basically. Winning one cup is a great achievement on paper, but in reality, less so. A laboured win over a team almost twenty places lower is not the kind of victory Liverpool should be proud of, and be basing the success of their season on.

So, good on Kenny getting Liverpool back into Europe where they belong, but unless he manages to arrest this slump by the start of next season, they won't be there very long...
KingHarryKewell (Liverpool) 4 years ago
It's quite typical for people to laugh and sneer at Liverpool's plight, as well as questioning Dalglish and questioning whether he's the right man for the job, questioning his tactics, questioning his signings etc.

If we're going to question managers, why not question Arsene Wegner while we're at it? Despite gaining a relatively good position in the table most years, and yet still no trophies to show for it, consistently losing it when it counts. Does anyone question Wegner? Does anyone question their players? Are Arsenal fans guided only by blind loyalty to their manager? No. In the same way, people shouldn't question Kenny, or the Liverpool fans, or say that we're so deluded. Fergie didn't win the Premiership in a season - give time for Kenny to rebuild and do his work at Liverpool. Stop questioning him or the fans - at least we're loyal to our manager.

There has at least been some improvement for Liverpool despite the continuous hitting of the woodwork - 1 trophy, hopefully 2 by the end of the weekend, and we're in Europe next season, albeit the Europa League, but it's progress. Improvement takes time, it doesn't take just a season to define someone.

Please don't post drivel like this on a site like footytube
Araz (Queens Park Rangers) 4 years ago
You won't have to cast your mind back very long to know that Wenger and his team were questioned earlier in the season some Arsenal supporters were calling for his head. Arsenal were criticised in many articles like this one, they responded with 7 straight wins and climbing back in to the top 3. Also you may want to note that Wenger is currently on course for a 15th straight top 4 finish in the league. Their bad form was short lived and therefore so was their criticism.

The thing is far fewer Arsenal supporters responded by claiming there was some sort of global conspiracy against their club and that a critical article must therefore be drivel. There is no conspiracy against Liverpool, and if you think 5 home wins in 18 is fitting of a club with Liverpool's stature then maybe it's the expectations of the rest of the world has of Liverpool that have remained high and those at Anfield that have dropped.

When you're a big club people expect you to do well in the league, when you spend massively those expectations are raised further and coming 8th or lower is simply not good enough. Many less legendary managers, have achieved greater things with far fewer resources and not hidden behind the number of times they hit the woodwork or the strength of their squad to excuse it, Roy Hodgson's Fulham come to mind as does one David Moyes.

So for as long as you spend £80m a season and come 8th expect more of the same, and in the opinions of almost the entire population of the planet (outside of Liverpool), that is not good enough. Those people are entitled to air their opinions, just as you are, without being called names or told they must be morons just because they don't share your views. And in fact I salut them for saying what they think when they know of the inevitable wrath they will incur
Sam6194 (Liverpool) 4 years ago
2 cup finals + 1 cup + returning to europe....

8th in the league despite spending millions....

Definitely 1st one is what I see.
Slenderass (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Kingharrykewell - Don't bring Wenger into this. Irrelevant. I can assure you there are many blogs all over the internet discussing him, not to mention football phone ins every weekend. Let the Arsenal fans discuss that. Let's look closer to home. We have spent a bonkers amount of money and are facing our worst league finish since we were relegated in the fifties. Newcastle have as many new signings as us that cost less than what we paid them for the pony and in their first season together they have around twenty more points than us. Moyes has spent nothing and his team is above us. We are surrounded in the table by teams like Fulham, West Brom and Sunderland. Unacceptable. Wenger, Man Utd, good blog, bad blog - irrelevant
Araz (Queens Park Rangers) 4 years ago
At last, some sense being spoken!
Matt (Footytube Staff) 4 years ago
Seems to me the vast majority of replies here from Liverpool fans serve to prove the point of the article.

Which is the faith put in Dalglish is based on his past not his present. If any other manager had spent like he has and slid so far away from not only the title but Champions League football there would be placards calling for his head.

Yes you have won the Carling Cup and yes you are in the final of the FA Cup and you will cling to that but everyone knows the real indicator of the growth of your team is in the league.

The stat about hitting the woodwork more than any other team is a good one I also like the one that Roy Hodgson has the same amount of league wins at Anfield this year as Kenny has.

So rather than simply throw the toys out of the pram as soon as someone dares to question your club try and think about the question which in this instance is "Is Kenny the man to take you forward in the modern game? " And when answering that question try to ignore (hard to do) what he has achieved in the past
Ant (Liverpool) 4 years ago
"Yes you have won the Carling Cup and yes you are in the final of the FA Cup and will cling to that". Name me one club in England, from any league, that wouldn't want to be in the final of the FA Cup. It's easy to dismiss the accomplishment of cup finals when your team gets knocked out. Suddenly, they don't matter.

Everyone's talking about how far Dalglish has slid the club. A single place in the table? Two perhaps? That, with almost an entirely new first team playing their first season together. Downing, Suarez, Carroll, Henderson, Coates, Enrique, Bellamy etc etc.

"Is Kenny the man to take you forward in the modern game? ".
Yes. He has already secured us a place in Europe next season, one or two trophies already this season, and with the signing of one more established striker, we'll be set
Matt (Footytube Staff) 4 years ago
Glad you are happy.

I am fully aware of how Cups are only important when you are in them. We (the mighty Premier League Saints) won the Johnstone's Paint Trophy 2 years ago and it was fantastic, the following year we got dumped out early doors which was fine as it was just a mickey mouse tin pot.

Also if you are after a striker Saints have one, 1 year in the championship as top scorer he is English and a Liverpudlian! Yours for a mere £40 mil
Slenderass (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Ant, he's right. We've were good without scoring pre January, and we've been shocking without scoring since January. How much have City spent every year since the Arabs came in? About 120 mil every summer? Something like that. And each season it has translated to an improvement in the region of twenty points to their final league position. We might not have spent as much as city, but we've spent way more than anyone else and have played awful football lately. I believe I heard yesterday that between them Carroll, Henderson, Downing and Adam have scored 7 league goals between them this season. One good attacking midfielder should get you at least ten on his own. They are awful signings. So what if it is their first full season together. Newcastle have assembled a side with less than what we paid them for Carroll who are also in their first full season together, players like Davide Santon, Yohan Cabaye, Demba Ba, Papiss Cisse and more. They have around twenty points more than us without a positive net spend. If Hodgson had overseen our spending spree and the resulting league form you and me and everyone else would be enraged. Yes the FA cup is good, but it's the league that counts. We have been beaten at home by teams we should be thumping with that amount of money spent. We are surrounded in the table by teams like Fulham, Sunderland and West Brom, with Everton above us, who have spent practically zero. Any team in the top 4 should be hoping for a good cup run alongside their good league position. We can't justify our league position by referring to our good cup run. We beat United in the last few minutes in the fourth round, and we came from behind to beat Everton at wembley which was nice, but that's two games. Also beating Brighton and Stoke on our way to a final that we lost and played dreadful in hardly justifies spending over a hundred mil considering we have won only 5 games at anfield this season, and we have a manager who hasn't the balls to drop our big name signings even though they all play awful and we have had usually consistent performers like Bellamy and Maxi on the bench. Shocking season. Over a hundred mill spent under Dalglish and the hard fact is that we are facing our worst league finish since the fifties. Nuff said
Jeganx (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Been a liverpool fans for 22 years, and not a single league trophy. You ask me, if I ever want to be another club fan? I tried and it didn't work, you will lose the meaning of loving a club. Once you love a club, no way you can easily change to another. Loving Liverpool is more than loving a wife (in a good way). In my next 60-80 years (hopefully I can live that long) I will see Liverpool knocking Manutd off their perch. Now that is faith. No loyalty needed. I will support my team as long as I can and I always hope the best team win in every match, hopefully that team is Liverpool.

Think positively, this is a process that we must go through. With positive attitude we will get positive result.

My only regret is the Hillsborough tragedy, I wish it didn't happen and Kenny didn't have to leave
Imic9048 (Everton) 4 years ago
Well, I thought the article was actually pretty good. There were some comments up the top saying keep this garbage to the United blogs etc and stick to the big issues in football like "why Mancini's mind games worked so well against United".... Really? I think Liverpool spending over 100m, failing in the league, and playing like they don't really have an identity is actually quite a pressing issue in the premier league at the moment. Much bigger than trivial mind games between Mancini and Ferguson....
I realise they won the Carling cup and they are in another final but they really have been pretty poor and I agree with the writer that Daglish should take a big part of the blame. Maybe he's not cut out for 'modern football'?
Anyway, I await the assault from Liverpool fans (and I am not a United fan)....
Slenderass (Liverpool) 4 years ago
Ah, but you are an Everton fan! Only joking, I hate the stupid "Are you a United fan" line of defence that tunnel vision football fans (not only LFC fans, in our defence) use when they can't accept a solid argument. I agree with you wholeheartedly
UDECHILE (Univ de Chile) 4 years ago
So many of the comments above are rather biased :/
LumpOfCelery (Chelsea) 4 years ago
No evidence what so ever? footytube, You don't have to constantly churn out blogs, just wait till a decent one comes along...

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