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A Change Of Tactics.Reverting Back To 433
Jujex (Juventus) 3 years ago
Well I made the thread shorter. I wanted you guys to discuss the formation and ideas first before we get to the players.

Now lets review the pros and cons of our 352. Our style of play specially in serie has allowed us to pin teams back in their own half and dictate our play and in case of counter attacks our 3 in the back were more than capable of dealing with most of the counter attacks and when we sit back we basically defend with 5 at the back with 3 in front of them which makes penetration for other teams almost impossible BUT the problems arose when away from home we often faced teams who pressed our backline(roma, Napoli) and we werent able to bring the ball forward as effectively. IMO this was the main reason that I thought Barca would be our toughest opponent due to their excellent pressing abilities but it turned out that Bayern had already realised that and used it effectively against us and add to that their magnificent defence & world class GK we did not really have much of a chance. Not to mention the fact that our CF Matri is incapable of holdup play which will be improved massively by Our next CF Fernando Llorente.

I read a shocking statistic on that we had the lowest number of dribbles per game in the UCL this season with only 4. 7 per game which put us last(shocking right?) with CFR Cluj! Which shows that its not just the forwards but the creativity of quality wingers/dribblers that we need to take the pressure off of our midfield and provide better service(just look at ribbery and robben they basically beat 2 men on their own) and clear cut chances to our CF not half chances that we got against bayern. Since Lichtseiner is not capable of beating his marker and Asamoah despite his form early in the season is more comfortable as a Midfielder I Believe the best way to achieve this is Reverting back to 433. It would take a small revolution for our attack to achieve this but with the funds available to us(We will be making around 270-280 mil this year up from 195 mil last year)I think it is doable.

Pqsaraiva (Juventus) 3 years ago
I agree that Llorente will give us a big boost. Furthermore he might help Gio shine a little more. Gio had moments of brilliance, but I see him more as a creator forward than a finisher. I feel that having another forward of his level or higher up front might help him to play better. If we go back to playing the 4-3-3 formation and if availability and price was not an issue, I'd like to se Gio-Llorente-Hulk up front. I have my doubts about Damião. Suarez is a great player and he might be a good match for us as well. The CF I would like at our team the most would be Falcao. Sanchez would make our front line too short/physically weak which could create problems for us against teams like Bayern or Madrid. A midfielder I'd like in our team, again if price and availability wasn't an issue, is Lucas from PSG. He has more skills than most of our current players and his passing timing is not bad either. Kind of a much improved Giak, who is skilled but the timing of his passes are not very good. All this is considering we change our formation to 4-3-3 or even a 4-4-2. (I believe other fancy formations with more than three numbers are essentially a three number formation allowing formation change, in other words just a different name for something that already has a name) What is given is that we need a tactical change. Our Juve shouldn't be put agains the ropes as we have experienced at UCL. There is something wrong when we play too long in our defensive side. I think we can do better in that department and formation looks like a contributing factor
Spigy (Juventus) 3 years ago
I was actually thinking that pressing football would be something we can handle due to the fact that we have 2 long ball "specialists" in the Pirlo and Bonucci. It failed because our CF and wings weren't up to the task of keeping the ball and penetrating the defence.

3-5-2 is a great formation as it gives numbers all over the field and is great for possession football without being too offensive and vulnerable. The cons are the high use of central defenders and wingers. The fact that we could use 4-3-3 solved some of these problems last year, but without a player who can play on the sides offensively and defend at the same time aka Pepe, there would be problems at the back.

It stays ideal for us though because it is extremely easy to convert from one formation to the other. Of course this requires players who can fill in multiple roles, but we have that. We just need more.

Currently our only 4-3-3 option would be to have both Gio and Vucinic on the field and that would take a toll on our defence.

This is the team now:

Barzagli, Bonucci, Chiellini, Caceres, Peluso
Lich, Asamoah, De Ceglie, Isla
MVP, Pogba, Marrone
Gio, Vucinic, Q and Matri
Pepe, Giak, Padoin

So--- I'd say we need 2 wingers who are used more than DC and Isla and a more controlling CF who can help connect the wings. If both wingers can be used as a side striker ala Pepe, it would solve all the problems.

MESSIMYGOD (Barcelona) 3 years ago
Litchensteiner. Bonucci/Barzagli. ChIellini Ziegler
Asamoah. Pirlo. Vidal
Marchisio. Vucinic. Giovinco

And of course, good old gigi
FORZAJUVEPIERO (Juventus) 3 years ago
@Messimygod - given that player personnel (of which, I don't see Ziegler making a return as a starter), It would be more advantageous to play a 4-3-1-2 formation with Marchisio playing as the CAM. Reason being, with Vucinic and Gio, you have 2 creative strikers and Marchisio would be considered a similar type player if put in that position (not an out-and-out goal scorer). I would also put Asamoah on the left but would still be hard pressed to start him of Pogba given is defensive and offensive prowess that I think is superior to Asamoah (although pre-African Cup of Nations might give him a run for his money).

My opinon still is that Vucinic and Gio should not play p top together because their skill sets don't counterbalance each other. Instead, I think it ultimately dilutes the skill and creativity they bring to the attack. That being said, I do like Gio in a 4-3-3 combination with him on the left wing but whoever plays on the right flank needs to have serious defensive capabilities that are far better than Gio''s
Noir853 (Juventus) 3 years ago
I agree with pq. We currently lack the real #9. And having falcao in the team would be a dream come true. But our current style require the more 'hardworking #9' in the mould of cavani/mandzukic

But yeap lets wait see whats llorente are made of
Noir853 (Juventus) 3 years ago
And spigy got a point too.... Playing 4-3-3 curently against strong teams like bayern, real etc would be suicidal. Definitely not of we start with lazy vucinic, midget giovinco whose pooe on defending term upfront

*sorry couldn't find 'edit' button while using my phone
FORZAJUVEPIERO (Juventus) 3 years ago
I would be hesitant changing changing formations from the 3-5-2 to 4-3-3 unless we had an overhaul in our attacking and wing players. As Spigy pointed out, if played correctly, the formation allows for maximum coverage in defence when needed and a multitude of attacking options moving forward.

Regarding/Correcting the 3-5-2 formation:

As it has been pointed out countless times, we need more a more attacking options for the wing backs. Asamoah isn't quite attacking enough like Marchisio or Vidal, Litchsteiner lacks the attacking creativity (although he is a great workhorse) like a Dani Alves who provides such a creative spark to Barcelona's attack. Maybe it comes down to putting one more offensively minded wing-back on the pitch at a time to ensure there is enough defensive coverage, although that might lend to defensive balance issues.

To Jujex's point on the number of dribbles in the champions league, I think this is how you deal, at least partially, with that problem. Yes, we need a true #9 who can hold possession and have the strength to deal with the large back lines of the top European clubs. The other thing to keep in mind is that dribbling is tactically not a huge part of that formation. It loads the midfield with multiple passing lanes with so many midfielders and also forces the link-up pay to go through the center of the pitch which is one of the more difficult places to complete successful dribbles.

Regarding/Correcting the 4-3-3 formation:

As stated before, I think that if we wanted to actually consider using this formation in European play, we would need to refresh our wingers and strikers. You absolutely need a #9 that can hold up play against 2 defenders as well as wingers who can defend and be a potent attacking option (I love Pepe but he is fine for the 4-3-3 in Serie A but he does not have enough attacking prowess to go against a Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern, or Manchester United). If one of the 3 up front aren't great finishers, we might as well play a 4-4-2 and allow any other midfielders to make runs forward.

The Other issue I have is in midfield. The best attribute we have as a squad, along with a consistent defence is a strong, lock-down midfield that allows for players like Marchisio, Vidal, and Pogba to come forward (often 2 of them) to engage in the attack while not suffering too much in the counter attack (unless we're lazy). Currently, Pirlo is free to move around almost anywhere, defensively is not asked to much of, and can play the holding midfield position he is so great at. In the 4-3-3, Pirlo has to play more elevated and provide more defensive cover than usual. Marchisio, Vidal and/or Pogba will not be able to move forward in pairs or solo much anymore because their defensive responsibilities along the flanks will be more onerous than they currently are.

Not saying that the 4-3-3 is a bad formation, but I don't think it compliments are squad as it is today. If a number of different impact players came in that would allow us to make or for certain inefficiencies, than maybe. But especially with our current midfield composition, I think we should upgrade particular positions that will lend to the extra attacking options we so desperately need
FORZAJUVEPIERO (Juventus) 3 years ago
Wanted to add to my analysis above given that a new formation has been added to the Juve repertoire.... 3-5-1-1. This new system isn’t an entirely different from our typical 3-5-2 but it's a solution that includes Paul Pogba after his continued excellent performances, which has forced Conte to field him regularly. An upside is Claudio Marchisio’s game isn’t significantly altered by starting higher up the pitch. The main feature of our attacking play, movement and combinations between the front two is still possible with this formation.

As I said in my previous post, the issue with going to 4-3-3 is that it gets away from our strongest asset - our central midfielders Pirlo, Marchisio, Vidal, and Pogba (I would also include Marrone but with those 4, I highly doubt he will get any significant playing time in the midfield unless there is an injury). Now, I don't think this formation should be used consistently as we don't have a true #9 that would force multiple defenders to cover. A Cavani, Higuain, or Falcao (only Higuain is remotely possible) would be great options in the lone striker position. All that being said, I think the only player we have that can play in that elevated midfield position is Marchisio. Otherwise, we should have someone like Vucinic (when on form) to play in that position who can hold the ball and link up with the striker. Either way, that player needs to be able to hold the ball and defend, as well as attack, so it creates another squad issue if we are going to keep this system with any kind of consistency and regularity.

What are all your thoughts on this new system in relation to the 3-5-2 or 4-3-3 system we've been debating?
Lugs13 (Juventus) 3 years ago
I do have another Formation but maybe quite extreme changes for the team. My first option will be 3 - 3 - 1 - 3 like Barca did 10 - 15 years ago, it's a total offensive play. With 2 center backs and 1 sweeper, 3 central midfielders (Marchi, Pirlo, and vidal) Att Midfield will be asamoah/gio and 2 att winger and 1 striker. It's like

Barzagli - - Chiellini

Vidal - Pirlo - Marchi


Vuci - Llorente -? (need to find out)

And the other formation will be 4 - 1 - 3 - 2 with possession footbal.

Any thought guys?

FORZAJUVEPIERO (Juventus) 3 years ago
I actually really like the 3-3-1-3 system if we were playing a really weak Serie A that simply wanted to try and weather the storm of attack for 90 minutes because I know our defenders in BB&C (sounds like bank lol) are capable of covering most counter-attacks.

I think the 4-1-3-2 system would be interesting to see but, tactically speaking, I think if Pirlo is playing the holding midfield position, he needs to be able to interchange with one of the 3 CAM because he doesn't cover too well on the defence, especially on the counter-attack so I'd probably prefer Pogba or Maronne in that position with Pirlo more elevated up the pitch playing the more Xavi-esque flicks over the defence instead of long-balls over the defence. That being said, I still think this formation fragments (although less significantly) our strongest aspect as a team, our midfield. Especially their ability to defend and attack. It just might leave us a little more vulnerable in the middle of the field unless the 3 CAM drop back more, but that would negate the purpose of the formation IMO
Spigy (Juventus) 3 years ago
We would never actually play 3-3-1-3 though. More like 3-1-3-3.

BBC (its the news channel FJP )
Pirlo in his usual place
Vidal Pogba Marchisio

This is the only way I see this happening, with 1 stamina man upfront who can cover the side if he has to. Even the weakest teams can score on an empty net.

At the rate in which Vidal, Pogba and Marchisio recover balls, it would be frighting, but pacey wingers can screw us big time
Noir853 (Juventus) 3 years ago
Currently I'm fond with our new 3-1-3-1-1/3-5-1-1 system

But can you imagined if we have Suarez or Ibra in the place of Marchisio behind Llorente currently? That would be awesome

Marchisio can have a rotation between him, Pirlo & Pogba. I believe Vidal is essential on the center of the pitch, more than Pirlo. When we opponent mark Pirlo, we lose one cylinder of our
Team.... But with Vidal.... You can be sure opponent would be having hard time distributing the ball
In the middle.... And yes he(vidal) also threatening when going forward and were everywhere
Around the pitch also
FORZAJUVEPIERO (Juventus) 3 years ago
You're missing a player in the 3-1-3-1-1 system

Your mistype opened an interesting thought: 3-1-3-2-1

Upside: The 2-1 triangle created up front would be a way to incorporate attackers in front of goal in a similar fashion as our midfielders are currently getting involved in the attack. Given our current squad, you could put Marchisio and Pepe behind Quags/Matri which would allow for cover when we are on the offensive and spread out the back line of the oppositions defence when elevated on the offensive side of the field. Given some of our targets (rational or otherwise), placing Ibra and Marchisio behind Llorente or Pepe and Suarez behind Hiquain or Llorente coould be really potent. This way, too, we could incorporate the extra CM that are not in the midfield or incorporate wingers that we bring in for other formations like 4-3-3 or an improved 3-5-2.

Negatives: Still leaves our defence open to the counter and strong, powerful wingers/strikers (ex: Bayern). Especially if BBC are not all starting and Peluso, Caceres, or Peluso are stepping in, it would be a risky formation against stronger sides.

At the very least, would be a fun formation against weaker sides or if we are in a 0-0 deadlock, sub in an attacking player and switch to 3-1-3-2-1.

All interesting...
Jujex (Juventus) 3 years ago
All right I read your points and systems. You all make good points. I guess I have to clarify something.
What I meant by playing 433 was that we have to look to bring players who can give us the option to play 433 not that we should try to play with our current lineup.
I think one characteristic of Conte's coaching Philosophy is to use the best formation that his players Allow him to use.

Go back to the beginning of the 2011-2012 season. Conte said before coming that his preferred formation 424(an attacking 442) similar formation to what Fergie uses in Man UTD where fullbacks and wingers combine in both attack and defensive duties that's the formation he used to bring Siena up to Serie A.
We even started with that in first few games but we immediately switched to 433 and it made sense because Vidal & Marchisio were too good to leave out and the MVP was born.

And after 433 came 352 becuse Chiello was not at his best at left back and our 3 CBs were too good to be left out for a right winger not to mention vucinic performs better as 2 up front rather than Left wing in a 3 and now we are playing 3511.
To make it a little clearer think like a video game. If you wanna force a 433 you will end up with much weaker right winger and a center forward but if use the players with the highest rating it would put bonucci and pogba in the team because they are much stronger in their respective positions than for example giach or matri are at theirs so it makes sense to use the 3511 now but if you say for example we bring Robben to the team what he offers on the right wing of a 433 is more than for example what pogba would at the moment. And if the player is good enough for that position conte would make the change for the system to fit that player in and if you add another top right winger then we could have and overall team which might be stronger than our 352. I think in Vucinic & Gio(Who I'm still hoping would come good) we have players who are quality for the LWF position, They might not be Ribery or El Shaarawy but with stronger Forwards they can shine even more

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