Forums / Euro 2012
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England Fans Could
Joeymac (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Sol Campbell has issued a warning to England fans wishing to travel for the Euro's, instead advising them to stay home and watch it on TV.


Link: soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1080196/sol-...

What are your thoughts? Are Campbell's comments worth looking at? What is your view of issues these EURO's?

Particular comments from people living in or around the area are welcome, along with views from those planning on traveling for the event. This is a good time where football can teach us about other cultures
Tony (footytube staff) 2 years ago
I just watched a video on the bbc, and it showed a game in the ukraine and the home fans turned on three asian lads who were supporting the home team as well, they reckon they were attacked because of the colour of their skin, its a f*****g disgrace when people can't go watch a game of football without fear of racism or plain hooliganism
Tony (footytube staff) 2 years ago
Here is video footage of the video I was talking about......Poor lads


Link: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18233736
[account-removed] 2 years ago
Racism is definitely an issue. I've read reports as well of some Indian kids beat up even though they were sitting in the "family" section of the home support. I've personally been lucky never to have been physically abused by the general population over my race, but I did face some administrative and medical issues over it from the NHS, where they actually apologized and changed me to an Indian GP after an incident.

Is it simply newspapers writing up stories just to fill space or create negative publicity? It's really impossible to tell, for the case could be an off case where racism has taken place. However, there have been some reports of "anti Jew" sentiments and pictures taken of Nazi salutes with the police just saying that they were just "pointing" at the other team's supporters. Last I checked, pointing needed one finger outward and 4 inward....

If the police is ignoring the issue, is it worth risking your life going over to watch a football match? If you were injured seriously, and needed immediate attention while coughing up blood, and yet people with a bruised knee of another colour were treated before you.... Is it worth it? It is the unfortunate truth and I'm ashamed to admit that I'd have taken the "safer" route and stayed back.
Tony (footytube staff) 2 years ago
Did you check out the video above maddy? , I think they are indian lads that were attacked
Achiox (Manchester United) 2 years ago
City's away game against Napoli (can't remember if it was last year or two years ago).... I'll never forget that scare....

As that cliche banner says (but clearly not enough.... !) Say no to racism!
[account-removed] 2 years ago
I did check it out Tony. They most certainly were Indian. If something like that is captured on camera, and the police don't even interrupt, then there is absolutely no way in hell that I'd venture there. A couch + a nice cool drink and I'm set to watch it on the TV
Joeymac (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Then this brings on the next question-
What measures will/should be made to help solve these issues, and specifically in the next two months? Why did UEFA choose these sites when there is seemingly increased danger?

Again, I welcome any comments from those who live in Poland or Ukraine. Are these common events? Is this a media hype?
TheBarcaShow (Footytube Staff) 2 years ago
Has everyone forgotten 2010 already? South Africa was an extremely dangerous place for tourists before the World Cup, people got mugged, even players got robbed but everything ended up being a success.

These tournaments transform countries, a lot of money is pumped out during the tournaments which improve security and safety. So the travelling to the tournament itself I don't think would be an issue as long as tourists do their research and know not to do and the places to avoid.

The questions which need to be asked is of course UEFA (I'll include FIFA in here as well as they have the same faults) It is clear that there are better venues than Ukraine and Poland. Actually, if you think of it, how many places in Eastern Europe would actually be suitable to host something like this?

I'm no conspiracy expert but does having English fans staying home from the Euros sound convenient. "Don't go to Euros, spend all your money on London instead where everything will be safe! (as long as no riots happen of course)"
Joeymac (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Of course mate hahaha.    And I enjoy your points, they tie into Matt below.
Matt (Footytube Staff) 2 years ago
The theory about holding large tournaments in these countries is that it will force the local governing body to look at their game and the policing of it.

Anyone that thinks that racism has left the English game needs to think again it is only this season that Oldham defender Tom Adeyemi was reduced to tears after being subjected to racist abuse from a section of the Kop at Anfield. The difference is how these incidents are dealt with.

In this particular case the main offender was highlighted and arrested he will also be served with a ban from all football grounds and will more than likely have his passport seized around major tournaments. In the incident that was featured in Tonys link it looks like no repercussions were forthcoming. This will mean that the offenders will know they can act how they want and the group of asian fans will probably never brave a football match again.

Also any right minded individual witnessing this event will question the fun in going to the games in future. This is the situation English football also faced in the mid 70's to early 80's fast. The FA reacted and now we have grounds full of families and fans from all over the world all able to enjoy the game in safety.

So although I do appreciate the message of the documentary I think we need to hear how Poland and the Ukraine have made plans to deal with these types of incidents.

I would encourage anyone who has the opportunity to go to a major tournament to seize it with both hands. Do your research so you know the no go areas (this advice goes for everyone coming to the London Olympics also). Stay in the fan designated areas and have fun
Joeymac (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Agree completely Matt. It's a matter of knowing where to go and when. There are just some places, even in my hometown, where you probably shouldn't venture to.

And your first point was where I wanted to get at. It's about the response to these problems, and the tournament as a whole gives these and other countries the incentive to clean up
Tony (footytube staff) 2 years ago
The fact that no one came to the assistance of the asian lads targeted shocked me even more, there were police, stewards and a massive crowd there and not one had the guts to stop these little thugs from beating these poor lads.
I know its most probably not a common occurrance, but would "you" let your son go there if they were anything less than white?
I'm white and I still would not fancy my son going there.
Is it any wonder the oxlade chamberlain and walcott families and friends won't be attending the tournament
Tony (footytube staff) 2 years ago
The football stadium is probably the safest place to be during a tournament, but not above apparently.
Its harder to police the streets and therefore a lot more dangerous, but no one should be able to attack people in the stadium
Joeymac (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Well, I think during the EURO's, there will be added media attention. So if police or officials neglected their duty and decide to standby and watch racist acts, then a hefty amount of unwanted attention would be drawn to the country. I think that's the motivation here- there's an opportunity to seize it
Tony (footytube staff) 2 years ago
So far they reckon there is only 3, 000 england fans going to the euro's, I'm sure it will be way more than that, and the irish are taking 40, 000 fans, so the irish don't seem to be worried,
Threkstari (Arsenal) 2 years ago
The full documentary:



Guys don't believe everything in the Panorama video aired by the BBC . Although there are hooligan problems in Eastern Europe there are only a minority of fans who actually are racist (I think they call these ultras in the video) it is not as severe as the video claims it to be.

1. Domestic games
The footages are from domestic derby games (some footage is 5+ years old). Most of the people love their club because during communist era football was one of the few things that wasnt heavily regulated and people looked at the sport and supporting a club as a retreat and a place where they can voice their opinion. Because of this supporting your club has become supporting your worldview (which was then taken advantage by radicalists or, as the video calls them, ultras. With this in mind it is no surprise that many people go overboard on domestic derby games. I do not condone this behaviour in case you are wondering but it happens.
Also the ultras are most commonly from the low-income earner and low-educated segment of society so chances are they won't be able to afford a ticket to the euro games

2. The map
Just take a moment and pause the video at 2:27 and have a look at the map. If you look carefully Austria and Czech Republic decided to switch places and Yugoslavia still exists. Now I know this is knit picking but how could the BBC make such a huge mistake? Do they care about Eastern Europe at all or do they merely want to discredit Euro 2012 due to the Olympics being hosted in London. Sure this is really far fetched I agree but as Sol Campbell put it "Sort your things out"

3. Manipulative subbing
At 4:16 we have an image of people chanting something and the BBCs translation says "Who isn't jumping is a jew". This surely disgusts many people watching and is downright anti-semiotic. Now the only problem is that the fans didn't chant that. The fans are shouting "Who isn't jumping is from Wizdew(a club situated in Lodz)". This isn't such an outrages chant now is it? Why did the BBC choose to clearly have a sub that is not even true? Suddenly the conspiracy theory seems more likely (although I still think its more about selling a story than actually discrediting Euro 2012)

4. Sampling bias
A groupmate of mine is a Poznan fan (is from poznan himself) and was actually asked to give an interview by the director of the documentary. He got booze and some cash in return but his views were not shown in the documentary. Why did they only include the radical interviews? As for the part where the cameraman theoretically goes with the ultras to a training session that is bullshit. In Hungary I am not allowed to go to these ultra training sessions. Why would a brit with a camera be able to?
Plus when they show the footage of 'ultras' hunting down illegal immigrants that's actually footage from the border guard (is that what its called in english) not football hooligans looking for illegal immigrants.

5. No quantification
This is the major reason why I think the whole documentary can be discredited. It is much like kony2012 in that it relies on peoples emotions rather than challenges ones thinking. So the documentary shows many aspects of atrocity and claim there are murders etc. Happening. Why don't they back their claim with figures about murders/1000 heads? What about general social stability measures used in Country Risk Analysis? These numbers are easily accessible through UN and WorldBank databases yet they do not cite any of these numbers to that the viewer and thus, could not create an ordinal ranking of how violent Ukraine and Poland are. The documentary makes the viewer think in extremes instead (just like kony2012)

6.Hooligans
Hooligans in football are present around the globe. It is easy to create such a documentary given footage 5+years old. The blame game is easier to play but by airing this show the BBC have offended quite a lot of people in Eastern Europe not to mention that people travelling to the Euros will be more willing to get into a fight as they perceive Eastern Europeans as "racist bastards who don't live in the 21st century" (actually had that line thrown at me ) who deserve to get a beating. The documentary didn't raise awareness but instead created tension and hate in a region that already has its problems.

All right that's all for now. Sorry for the long post guys. Before someone says I'm a racist c**t or something: I do not condone racism. I am a very worldly man who although was born to Hungarian parents grew up in Asia and am currently living in the Netherlands. I have had enough experiences to realize how stupid racial and national discrimination is
ManOnDMoon (Manchester City) 2 years ago
I saw the BBC program on the night, and I was frozen at first. When it all settled in, I tried to compare it with what I’ve seen myself or know about other countries. No need to fool ourselves: monkey sounds, insults, racist attacks, they are out there everywhere, in or outside of football. People are wondering how big those groups in Poland-Ukraine are, how spread out the phenomenon is, how frequent, are there going to be sufficient security forces in the stadiums, are those people going to be allowed in, and so on. What shocked people is the Nazi component, you see. Then again I don’t know what is worse, if the Hitler salutes or jumping-chanting death on someone (actually meaning it)
Sayrox (Manchester United) 2 years ago
How do you know it was manipulative dubbing? Do you have the actual footage?
Threkstari (Arsenal) 2 years ago
Sayrok.... Because I speak some Polish maybe? .... Just ask any1 who speaks polish to translate the chanting at 4. 16.... You're gna be surprised
Why would I claim the dubbing is wrong if I wouldn't know what I'm talking about? I don't work for the BBC so I generally make sure my claims are backed

Edit: I just re-read what I wrote and what I meant was that the subtitles with the translation were manipulative not the dub. Sorry my mistake
Sayrox (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Yup I thought you meant what they were saying have been changed.... Meaning the actual voice, not just the subtitles
Threkstari (Arsenal) 2 years ago
Sayrox.... Sorry man. Didn't intend to cause confusion. When I typed this up I was a bit tired
Jimmybreeze 2 years ago
I think my opinion might count for something here. I'm from Ukraine and I have a lot of family there and I have never heard of such huge problems that apparently exist there. As with any normal footballing country you will get isolated cases of racism but to say that it stretches to as much as being suggested by people who incidentally none of whom are from Ukraine is completely untrue. We have passionate fans but to paint them as racist is not true. I am trying to work out why the issue has become such a large one when it is not even an issue. Sol Campbell and others are clearly not helping the cause, if he happened to hear of one isolated case it doesn't make the whole country like that. I think the tournament and the fans following it there will be as safe as in any footballing country. We might be poverty stricken and generally not well off people but we aren't hooligans who like to incite problems that aren't there
Northgreen (AC Milan) 2 years ago
To me it sounds like they just wanted to sell a story and what sells better than controversy around the Euro holders at this time? Specially when one think how some of the english people are already bitter they didn't get the chance to hold it and now are given an easy way to complain about how those who got it instead won't really deserve it?
Joeymac (Manchester United) 2 years ago
Was waiting for someone from the area to respond. I think it was a media hype as well, to a large extent. Certainly there are dangerous places to go in any country, but it's up to tourists to plan it out and keep to the safe zones. Cheers Jimmy
Arsenal200 (Arsenal) 2 years ago
It's onacceptable that no one, especially the police didn't stood up to help



   
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