This is NOT football related: Share your opinion and please remain civilized!

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This Is NOT Football Related: Share Your Opinion And Please Remain Civilized!

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Note: This is not football related and it’s *very important that whoever may feel offended, that wasn’t my intention. I’ve had a hard time deciding whether to bring this topic (rumours --maybe--) up on footytube, but I couldn’t help wonder what my friends over here thought of this situation. And please, bear in mind that there have been several releases on the internet suggesting that this whole situation is a hoax. However, regardless to whether it's ‘false or true’ I'd like you to take the time to share your thoughts on the matter. Thank You!

This is vis-à-vis the frail debate (or should I say ‘‘alleged debate’’) going on in Australia regarding the adaptation of ‘‘Immigrants’’ (Muslims in Australia living under the Islamic Sharia Law) to Australians’ culture and ways of life.

The Australian Prime Minister – Julia Gillard – is claimed to have issued ‘‘staggering’’ statements following the actions that were taken towards those particular Muslims in an attempt to head off potential terrorists attacks.

Please refer to the following link for more info on what was said (or should I say -- supposedly said --) by Julia Gillard: Link: silentsspeech.wordpress.com/2011/01/01/australian-...

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Warning: Please people, let's not make this a ''Religion'' thing, as I believe footytube has rules against it. And just as a reminder, the real aim of my curiosity here is to find out what you, fine people on footytube, make of all the steps taken towards fighting/eradicating/preventing terrorism

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Now, personally, I’d like to say, regardless of the authenticity of those statements, that this issue with the fear of terrorists’ attacks and how it’s been handled by the authorities in Europe (England and France for me) is a bit too regrettable. Whether or not the Australian Prime Minister made those statements, I’d absolutely understand any measures of the sort in order to promote a certain feeling of safety in countries that have suffered from many terrorists’ attacks. But what I’ve always found a bit too regrettable is how usually panicked (there’s just no better word than ‘panic’) the government and authorities are in regards of those threats in such ways that, 6 or 5 weeks ago I had the visit of a good friend of mine from the US and at her arrival she was strip-searched and questioned for about 25min before being granted entrance in the UK (mind you, she’s an American). Now would you be surprised to know she’s a Muslim and her attire is probably what tipped the authorities off.

Like I said, I’d absolutely understand a situation in which a person would make a speech such as the ‘‘alleged’’ speech by J. Gillard in order to get rid of a certain level of radicals. But to pretend to ‘‘randomly’’ strip search *almost every (if not every) Muslims at the airport is seen to me as violating someone’s rights by being extremely prejudice if not racist. A situation which, IMO, honestly begs the question to know whether or not ''we'' even trust Muslims communities that well or, at the end of the day, aren't just hypocrites for greeting them with one hand while hiding a knife (just in case) in the other hand.

I know, it's FAR from an easy issue because the fear of being subjected to terrorists attacks is real but I honestly do wonder what's anyone's thoughts on this situation as a whole

DerBomba (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

One thing is for sure though, muslims all around the world have become victims of what a number of retards (pardon the expletives, but I personally look down on extremists of all religions) have done. What the world fails to realize is that not every muslim thinks in the same way as the groups, Al Qaeda or whatever they're called. This results in prejudice and that's why many muslims are perceived as terrorists. Stupid as it may sound, sadly this is the world we live in, people are all prejudiced to some extent and Gillard is no exception.

Anyway, the way Gillard expressed herself, makes her seem like an extremist herself, this time, a christian one. I now ask this question, is the difference in religion that important? I might anger some of you here, but bear with me. Tell me, does god really exist? I ask this because if God does not exist, then it's meaningless to hate each other over something that never existed in the very first place. But since Australia is convinced that Christianity is the way to go, the least they can do is to respect the rights of muslims anyway.

For me, the anti terrorism techniques are flawed. What's the point of monitoring the mosques anyway? I'd rather all individuals give up our own rights, I. E. Every individual loses the right to privacy when being checked by the authorities. Yes, this seems draconian in many ways, but better than dying in a bomb blast. So, in conclusion, it is not the muslims who are at fault here, but rather the hard headed politicians, who seem to care more about their position, than take the bold step to rescind the right to privacy.

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

I don't wanna come off as a radical of any kind but I do concur with the idea your are presenting regarding the possibility of having every individual losing their right to privacy when being checked by the authorities at airports and stuff.

For instance, I certainly won't feel any sense of prejudice when am with a friend at an airport and I'm asked to get along while my friend is retained and frisked like the sensors signaled heavy machinery weapons in his possession or something. Lol

Now, I also don't wanna sound naive to some others by giving the impression that I do not understand the necessity of all the security at an airport, etc.... Considering all the terrorist attacks that has occurred around the globe. However, is there not a sense of shame, or at least guilt, for coming out as a chauvinist because of the so called ''random'' strip search? Because let's admit it, there's honestly nothing random about that. I always had that impression it was only directed at people from the Middle East (referring here to the looks) but after seeing my black friend go through the same treatment I now suspect it has something to do with being a Muslim, period

DerBomba (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

It's the way the world goes mate. Like it or not, there's racism every where in the world, and this is actually the base line of why we have all these problems. I'll probably have to explain this in this way. Firstly, if you realize, the white muslims (pardon the use of the color, I'd no idea how to describe white people) would probably be able to avoid some of these checks. They usually target the brown skinned people. And as for black people getting checked, there's a stereotype saying that they're up to no good. This is something that has come generations ago. Something that ought to have been eradicated from our system, but isn't. So basically, that's where the trouble begins. It's more of a racist issue than anything now that I think about it.

But of course, I've spent the last year or so in Malaysia, and ironically, the racism there is geared towards the Chinese. So, it's the reverse there. About 5 years ago, the situation in Indonesia was similar. I'm not about to generalize but at least in those 2 countries, the racism is reversed. In the UK though, it's a little funny. A bunch of my mates who were locals hated the French. The irony of it all is that I couldn't tell white people apart, not to mention differentiating the French from the locals. Anyway, I've digressed enough. The point is, no matter where you are, you will be subject to racism. So, basically, this racism translates to these checks. This is why I'd say it's more a social problem than a political one.

And just to add something, I'd say that most people in the world are hypocrites, myself included. Think about it, I call myself a christian, and yet there are times I tend to discriminate. I'm sure most if not all of us do. If we'd truly followed the scriptures, then we probably wouldn't be having this debate, because every religion says that all men are equal

Dioforever (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

You know what Zhud, I think about this everyday. I am a Nigerian and ever since these Boko Haram the terror group started killing Nigerians, it has saddened me and I think about it almost everyday.

Why? Why? If not for my Muslim friends I grew up with, I would think about the Muslims in a very bad way which I have a good amount still building up in me. From what I learnt from my friends, it is forbidden for a Muslim to take a life just like it is in the 10 commandments that says "thou shall not kill". But I also learnt (might be wrong) that a Muslim can kill for a better cause(correct me if I am wrong).

Like DerB said "what if God does not exist". I am a believer and I say what if God exists? Same point we are heading but mine is.... Is it not the same God that created us all? Why would a God you serve accept you when you kill one of his innocent people and say it is for a better cause? God forbid. It is hell for you to take innocent lives especially this so called boko haram terrorist group.

I have a lot to say and I hope you'll forgive me to just show how much pain goes through me because of this. Someone said they strip muslims at airport. There was a time when all they did was search your bags for illegal items. Now everytime I travel, I get f*****g frisked by a samesex. I feel very violated but do I blame them? NO. We caused this for ourselves. How can anyone is this world justify strapping a bomb to himself on a plane thousand of feet in the air and sending innocent lives to their graves. And guess who started it? And do you know what irritates me the most? They f*****g pray and kill innocent people

Do you know what the meaning of the terrorist group in our country means? Western(where most christians live along with a few Muslims) education is forbidden. Oh wait really? . I've tried to read papers on them and from what I read, a group of people did not like the teachings of religion in the west and wanted to enforce sharia law across a nation with most Christians in it and when they were ignored, the started attacking. And that's just our own story and you can see a lot of things happening across the world

If there was only 1 group of muslims doing this, it wouldnt even be a problem. I am not a journalist but it seems all across the world you hear all these killings and terrorism that involve Muslims which I think is sad and I know more than half the Muslims in this world don't think like that but there are just so MUCH! They even linked this boko haram to Al qaeda.

There are a lot of reasons for this terrorism but I would say one of the biggest factor is people are un-educated. Someone comes and lies and preaches nonsense to you and the next thing you know is your strapping a bomb to yourself and killing innocent people in the name of a God that forbids it.

I totally applaud the prime minister cause if there is a country I would like to live in, its Australia and I think they are friendly and peaceful. And most of all and MORE importantly, I WANT muslims TO TAKE A stand. I want them to come out and criticize these behaviors of killings and tell the world that they do not support it and it is wrong. Because of the extent of how big this is going, I think they are sitting back a lot and they world is looking at them like "maybe they condone and don't have a problem with it" which I think its not true and these treatments will not stop. I could talk hours about this. But I am just going to stop here for now

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this. I myself am a Christian. Probably not the best out there though. Lol But like I promised, I would take any contribution to this thread with the respect it deserves. (not that you didn't of course.

)

Anyway, regarding the situation going on in Nigeria, I find it extremely painful and hard to cope with. Seeing how people can live amongst themselves and then one morning get up and go to Church only to be victim of a terrorist attack from one of your neighbour. Now that's just insane. And what is just as much regrettable is how, on TV and Internet, some journalists were linking this whole 'Boko Haram' situation with Al Qaeda as you mentioned. So there's my point: Whenever we hear the word ''terrorist'' what's the first thing that comes to mind? An honest answer would be either Muslims or Middle East.

As for Gillard's ''alleged'' declarations, I found DerB's approach pretty interesting. Tbh, I didn't see it that way but when to think about it, it could definitely come out as being extremist just like those they are trying to get out of Australia. But here's the thing, it's one thing to welcome someone in your home and another to thing to have that someone behave as if he owned the place. Lol. What I mean by this is, while J. Gillard's comment could be seen as extremist on the part of a Christian towards the Muslims they are trying to see out, it's also very legitimate to have a person you invite in your home to abide by the rules in your house; After all there's a reason why some are called ''Immigrants'' to mark a difference that should indeed be marked as an 'Immigrant' do not have the same rights as a Citizen. So I guess what I'm saying here is, I do share the intentions of the Australian Prime Minister while admitting the chances of such statement offending a few

DerBomba (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

@Dioforever
Hey mate, I'm a christian myself, but I had to use the example of God not existing to make the point, because some idiot once rebutted my argument that all man were made equal with a pretty logical argument : "If all men were made equal, then why is it every human being is different? " So, from that day on, I never use the argument that all men were made equal.

Anyway, I guess you have a point about uneducated people, but for the educated ones, they think very differently. For example, I asked a muslim friend of mine about the Jihad, and this is what he had to say : "What ever book Osama and the terrorists were reading, it certainly isn't the qur'an. " Basically he meant that the terrorists were basically misinterpreting the qur'an to their own benefit. So you're probably right about the fact that they could manipulate the uneducated people.

But here's the crucial point, isn't it racist for them to discriminate solely against the Muslims? I mean, personally, I don't mind going through all the same checks they do. After all, the terrorists may choose to target people of other ethnicity. In that respect, I'd say we should all go through the checks.

As for Muslims speaking out, they do actually, just that it isn't well publicized for whatever reason. Why is that so, I don't know, political reasons maybe?

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

@DerB, I'm really enjoying this idea of yours to search everyone the same way. At least that shows a certain degree of equality in the sense that good Muslims won't have to suffer from the ''sins'' (if I can call it that) committed by others. Since the incidents in Nigeria, I'm still to travel back to Africa and I really do wonder if when coming back to Europe I'll be strip search. Lol

As for the Muslims speaking out, yes indeed they do. I've even had the pleasure to listen to an Imam's interview once saying how regrettable it was to see many believers being mislead into the teachings of the Quran. But yeah, the broadcast are not as recurrent as one would think or want in order for them to make a real impact/difference

Ayyam (Chelsea) 3 months ago

(might be wrong) that a Muslim can kill for a better cause(correct me if I am wrong).

Well technically yes. But this is only under the orders of god. These terrorists are jokes, and are tainting the name of Islam. Islam has nothing to do with killing, and the Quran it self says to be accepting of other religions

Dioforever (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

@Ayyam thanks for that. I don't believe killing innocent people would ever solve anything and be acceptable by any religion and I refuse to stay close to anyone that thinks otherwise.

@DerB I get where you're coming from. I just tried to say it would also be pointless to hate and kill each other in the name of religion since I believe and am sure that we were all created by 1 God just like how stupid it would be to hate and kill in the name of religion if we werent even created from a Godly figure.

@Zhud I do believe some Muslims have spoken out but its just that the reality of the situation and discrimination is so big that it doesn't feel like no one(or rather a very big group) is really fighting against it. Do you know these terrorist in our country live on our own backyard? They live with the northerners and have been terrorizing us for over 2 years but still getting information seems like they are invisible. Many people now believe they have so much support from Muslims in their community and like I said, the way they utter threats have made Christians lose love for the Muslims and the relationship is getting bad.

I don't know if it is me overeating but I think this situation is very big. A lot of people now look at Muslims like extremists and potential terrorist just like we said about airports and this Australia article. These constant terror groups have tainted Muslims and I know because like I said, I grew up with some Muslim friends, and I think real Muslims need to fight harder to tell the world that that's not what they do and who they are and separate themselves from these evil doers unless it would be discrimination or segregation or worse for a long time to come

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Yeah Dio, I've been following those heartbreaking events happening in Nigeria as close as I can. And yes, it was said that those orchestrating those terrorist attacks are people from North Nigeria -- if am not mistaken, they are known as ''Yaoussa''/''Haoussa'' (doubt which is the right spelling) living under Islam doctrines. And from the reports on the ongoing events, it's claimed that they have ties with those extremist groups from the Middle East. And no, I doubt you are overeating in any way as, not only the issue is real, but it's only growing more intense by the years with the recent events in Nigeria there to support my idea.

Religions already have one too many things to disagree on with everyone trying to prove their case. And seeing how often terrorist attacks have been done by people with the Islamic believe isn't helping any other Religion to understand or trust the teachings from the Quran. BUT, here's where the notion of ''Education'' comes in handy. We have the opportunity to learn and cultivate ourselves better enough to build our own opinions. And from where I stand, with my experience with Muslims friends of mine, I can say (believe most of us can say the same) this thing with extremists ''Muslims'' is caused by how astray their interpretation of the teaching of the Quran.
I've confessed that I've never had the chance to read the Quran and while some would probably question my conviction that the Quran doesn't teach whatever those extremists are doing, I'll invite some to pay attention to what AFG said: ''1. Sinning by killing 2. Sinning by committing suicide and 3. Sinning by causing oppression. '' My point being, while I understand the importance of the security measures taken to ensure the safety of everyone, it's very important to bear in mind that they are innocent/victims from this stereotype/discriminating behaviors shown by government bodies and authorities and such.

Quick question: What are the measures taken in Nigeria in order to ensure the safety of those being slaughtered? PS: you won't even begin to imagine how painful it is to even talk about those incidents going on in your country

Dioforever (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

They are called Hausa. Altho there are over 50 tribes in Nigeria, there are 3 main ones. Hausa, Igbo and Yoruba. To add to that, there is also Muslims and Christian religions. In this case most Hausa people are Muslims while Yoruba and Igbo are Christians. You can find Yorubas who are Muslims. But you rarely find Igbo-Muslims and Hausa-Christians. I learnt in one of my history classes that Nigeria was formed by the immigration of those 50+ tribes so you see the amount of diversity we had to deal with before people settled for those 3 tribes (sorry for the history class)

As far as what the government(The worst group of people in our country. But that's a whole new thousand page book to discuss) have done, I read the papers like 3 times a week so I might not be 100% thorough, some steps have been the deployment of lots of security forces in the northern and central parts which in truth has helped because I believe without them, We would have been fighting a war now or taken over. Also we have strengthened our relation with our Nothern neighbors Niger and have asked their president to assist us as well as Benin and Cameroon.

But let me tell you another story. Do you know the group started around that 2001? They started as a peaceful group but around that 2009 they started getting violent and after attacks on police forces, they were ordered by our former president to be wiped out. During that time they started getting violent, they used to kill by drive-by shootings now with their emergence, they are so organized and they use deadly bombs.

Rumor has it that these guys are related and sponsored by our own government. Remember I told you about the tribes we have and how you can rarely find and Igbo-Muslim? Well they really picked up their pace when we elected our first (and current president) who is Igbo. They have even made remarks that Nigeria is being ruled by non-believers. After our 1960 independence, we have been ruled by Military(Military regime) But when we got democracy, Our first president was Yoruba, then Hausa and now Igbo and this is the peak of their killings ranging in the thousands.

I had a cool Cameroonian friend in my college and despite your a Barcelona fan i've always thought you were cool except the name callings(they were funny not cool) lol. But because of work I havent discussed on the forum like I wanted. It would have been better talking in real life. But ill try to continue to post when I can

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Are you kidding me?! Lol The little passage through history is most definitely a key to understanding it all. I'd even tell you how revealing it's been reading you. I mean, I've read a few line here and there from the medias, talked about it with my numerous Nigerian friends and it seems the reality of the situation as it's perceived by me through all the discussions and reading I've had concurs with your assessment of the situation.

However, one thing I didn't know so far was the fact that this whole situation results from a group of people who, apparently, prepared their selves long ago (you said 2001) growing into larger cells. But I would admit the incredible chances for some government bodies condoning these terrorist activities from far behind; because let's face it: Are our countries that outta' control that they can't see those cells from the very beginning and anticipate this kinda impossible situations where our brothers and sisters die in thousands?! I doubt it seriously.

I wish we had the chance to discuss this in a more lively way for sure because it seems I'd learn a tremendous amount of things regarding this situation, which I must confess, has frustrated me to the very top. As for the ''calling names'' thing I think it's more of an impression based on the rivalry thing and being on internet doesn't make it any easier not to have preconceived ideas. But no, if you ask me, there are not ''calling names'' but more like ''calling out on people regarding what the ideals they appear to stand for and defend''. For example let's say you were to catch someone stealing, now what would you call him? A burglar or what?! E. G: Pepe was very brutal long before his stamp on Messi's hand, yet, many claimed it's Barca who are ''cry babies''. Sure, some of our players have gone down way too easily or hold their faces when the touch was nowhere near their faces. But between you and me, how would you call someone who presents that fact to refute a reality in which Pepe is a very sadistic player?! 2 wrongs don't make it right; meaning if we are talking about the fact that some Barca players have been guilty of going down way too easily, I'll not bring up RM's antics because regardless to those, the fact that some of our players are guilty of those accusations remains a reality. Now that's how I am and wished many wouldn't go into 'defensive mode' whenever their team's flaws were brought up into light because basically, that's what most (if not) every RM fans does on a regular in your forum. But believe it or not, am a huge fan of Nigerians and I have no doubts we would hit it on straight away. Haha

That right there is how much am fond of my neighbors.

Binaya (Chelsea) 3 months ago

@Zhud , I am an overseas born non christian/Muslim Australian . There is always attention on right wing media regarding these kind of issues ie immigrants , religions .

But otherday I was watching some news and this guy was talking/proposing some few suburbs to have a sharia law .

I am not an expert of this law and don't have a thorough understanding on how it operates, but Australia already has its law and don't think some particular area (where muslim are majority) needs to have separate law and regulation.

I seriously doubt the authenticity of the above article but having saying that it should be understood that Australia accepted mass migration only from 70s , 80 s and even 90s . It takes time to assimilate into the new cultures, ideas ,etl.

It is interesting to point out the 2005 Cronulla Riots issue here . For further reading

Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots...

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

@Binaya, thanks for taking the time.

I'd like to reiterate the fact that there have been talks questioning the veracity of that information. However it's important that I add what an issue this whole situation remains whether or not the alleged statements were indeed made by the Australian Prime Minister.
Yes, the issue is real and it's a bit shocking when you experience it first hand. And I'd even say my experience from seeing my friend being ''caressed'' all over just because she's a Muslim kinda frustrated me because, although the world is well aware of a group of Islamic who organize terrorists attacks, there are one too many Muslims who aren't tied with those organisation. And seeing how prejudice the authorities/securities can be towards this terrorism issue, I can only feel for those at the receiving end of it.

More importantly, as an African living in Europe, it's extremely sad to see my fellow Africans from Nigeria going at it (terrorism) with so much disregard for how bad they look in front of the world, I can only say ''yes'' for strip-searching every frigging person that goes on a plane rather than being prejudice towards the looks (Middle East, Muslims attire, etc....) as nothing is to say a man dressing like me isn't the one that's about to go insane. Lol

And while we are on it, this actually kinda reminds me of a certain reality that goes on in the US with people walking around with firearms. Now I can't even keep count of the number of frustrated people/students that got into their heads that they were in a Western movie and decided to get out and practice on people. Now what about that? They aren't always (if not ever) Muslims/Middle East but rather my fellow black and white brothers. Now such atrocious events gets into my books as ''terrorism'' as well. Reason why whenever there's a searching in progress, whether it's at an airport, train/bus station, school, etc.... I think the search party should definitely not be biased towards a certain class or group of people.

Thanks for the link on the ''Cronulla riots'' story. I would admit I never heard of it until just now. And it was a very interesting read. Especially seeing how it all started and how the riots only escalated. Recommend the read to anyone who never heard of those riots -- pretty insane riots

Dukeduke (Barcelona) 3 months ago

I think it's the fear of the unknown (along with a little fear of the known) that's taking place over there (and elsewhere as well). There are these extremist islamic terrorist groups and people who don't know much about islam. What are they gonna' think about islam when they see these things happening? They are gonna' think this is somehow what islam supports. I'm from and live in the us and live near a densely populated muslim area. (2nd most outside of the middle east; dearborn, mi) I met some muslim friends in college and work and happened to get along with them pretty good. I'm catholic (christian). I researched islam a little bit and learned some from my work and friends too. I don't ask what they think about these extremist groups and terrorist attacks done in the name of islam or what they think of sharia law. As a catholic I feel a great shame when people talk about the sexual abuse scandal in the catholic church. This doesn't mean people shouldn't talk about it, it's just hard for me to talk about because of the deep shame associated with it. It's obviously something that I need to be able to talk about as a catholic though so that I can show my support for those who were victims from it and promote actual catholicism to prevent such a thing from happening again. I understand how a muslim person could feel a deep shame about extremist terrorist attacks in this light. It's hard but it needs to be done. I'm still not that well informed on islam though and don't understand exactly how these terrorist groups are supporting themselves with the qu'ran and islam. I don't want to compare religions here so I'm going to avoid that but I hope the best for my muslim brothers and pray that they show themselves innocent despite the challenges they have to face because of what others have done in their religion's name

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Dukeduke, thanks a bunch for taking the time to give us your 2 cent on the matter. I'm very pleased to read your approach towards this unfortunate situation. And it's such a delight to know there are some out there that tries to relate in any way possible with all of this. I am not Catholic, but have grown in a Catholic surrounding, and I can fully understand where you coming from and to be honest, I've actually never related myself with my Muslims friends in the way you do. But reading the correlation you brought to light with your approach, I kinda realize how uneasy it must be for some to actually even talk about it. I've always had pretty loud friends in the sense that they tend to voice their opinion whenever they get the chance and if there's something I can affirm is how frustrated they all are to put up with all these discrimination caused by -- like you put -- these extremist Islamic terrorist groups. The only pity here is what they have to put up with - a discrimination disguised as ''randomly'' (if you see what I mean)

Dukeduke (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Oh ya I definitely agree that it's a lie and a sheepish one at that to call said searches random

Dukeduke (Barcelona) 3 months ago

On my own experience I also understand why muslims would be checked more at airports and such and why it's not irrational to do so. I'm not promoting racism or any kind of hate or violence towards muslims. There was a guy who strapped himself with an underwear bomb on a plane going to my city (detroit) a few years back. The bomb didn't work and he was caught and went to jail. He was obviously misled and mistaught so that he would kill himself and others to promote some kind of message. It is still not just as I see it in God's eyes to search all muslims (as if they were guilty). I'd think that'd be a very humiliating thing for them to go through. I also think God understands why security at said airports would be more suspicious and cautious of muslims then other people because of recent events. People don't reconcile with other people (usually) in this way though (in the media and such) the real stories about peace and reconciliation between muslims and people who may have been a bit afraid of what they were bringing with them are at a personal level. From person to person or family to family. That's my own experience too

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

OMG! Can you imagine getting off a plane while someone from the same plane is being arrested for having strapped explosives on his body to martyr himself and was only caught because he failed to fulfill his intentions because the bomb trigger mechanism kinda jammed. That right there is scary stuff. I doubt I'd be taking any planes any time soon if I was to go through something like that.

It's undeniably a great ordeal to endure, yet, I still wanna believe that we would be better of strip searching everyone -- even the dog -- rather than have a few go through it based on some discriminating/stereotype ideologies (which I believe are based on fear and nurture by the same fear.) More so when one considers the atrocities going on in Nigeria, is it really safe to a kinda Middle East looking guy and run in the black guy's direction only to realize that the one with the bomb is the black (mind you, I'm black). My idea here being, we'd be absolutely safe if we searched the hell out of everyone. Haha

Dukeduke (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Ya that's true. It'd just take a long time. That's a lame excuse but it would be practically impossible to do it unless they hired tons more people at every airport. I still flew to mexico the same year by the way.... Hehe who knows what they'll end up doing if this sort of stuff continues though. Everything's possible I guess. Sometimes you just gotta' trust in God and hope for the best. Hopefully relations will improve though and maybe new technology will make it harder to sneak weapons or chemicals for bombs onto planes. Everytime they do something new we learn something new about stopping them. Sounds promising, not sure if it is though. I suppose in any situation something could go wrong, and people could die. Flight's especially scary since people already feel so vulnerable

Ayyam (Chelsea) 3 months ago

I'm 90% sure she didn't even say that.

I am an Australian, and I am a muslim (But that's irrelevant for what I am about to say). But I listen to Gillard's voice every day, on the radio, and on TV. And she would absolutely never, ever, in her mind talk like that. She would not say something radical like that, And I watched her latest press conference. She never said a thing about that, This is just some extremist Australian (?) Blog making crap up. I am not a fan of her, But that sounds like a rant you would read in the comments section of a newspaper website, I cannot be the only one to understand this. BTW I am not being biased, But that's just not the way the old ginger phases her sentences. My source you ask?

“i am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. ‘This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom’ We speak mainly english, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society. Learn the language!’"

Lmao, Does that sound like a politician of a major country? Maybe a dictator, or a football manager, but not the PM.

Not to mention not a single major/or even slightly reliable media outlet over here has reported this, or even acknowledged this

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Ayyam (Chelsea) 3 months ago

That's the thing, I don't want to be paranoid, But I am certain that there are orders to have "Random Inspections" on all muslims, I mean what are the odds, That my mother, who wears a hijab and flys frequently always since 2001 has been randomly inspected, its annoying, But my mother is no extremist, So I don't think we have a problem

N3razzurri (Inter Milan) 3 months ago

I'm astonished by the lack of knowledge about islam by the users on this forum, however it's understandable, I'm not blaming anyone for it and perhaps I could at least do my little bit of contribution with some useful information that I think would be of benefit to this discussion, this is excerpted from a website of one of my favorite muslim scholars (Shabir Ally) regarding racism, 'immigrants' or how all men are 'equal' in islam....

How to end Racism

Recent events remind us that racism remains rampant. How can it end? Only understanding and education can end racism.

People must realise that God created all humans from one couple. The entire human race is therefore one large extended family. God says:

Oh mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul and from its mate; and from the two of them He spread abroad a multitude of men and women (Qur'an 4:1).

Oh mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that you may know each other. The noblest of you, in the sight of Allah1, is the best in conduct (Qur'an 49:13).

The noblest is the best in conduct. Such persons may belong to any race or country. What really matters is their conduct and behaviour.

This is why the prophet Muhammad2 in a public address said that the Arabs are not superior to the non-Arabs, and one colour is not superior to another. He also said that people should obey their leader even if he is a black person.

Furthermore, we must understand that no race is superior to another. When we see a garden with many different flowers we appreciate the beauty of the entire arrangement. We have nothing against the colour of any flower because each contributes something to the beauty of the garden.

In a similar way we may see the world as a garden decorated with people of different colours. Let us appreciate that each variety of people contributes something to the spice of life in this world. God says:

He himself appointed a black person, Osamah, son of Zaid, to lead a Muslim task force.

As a result of following these teachings, many people are able to end racism in their thoughts and actions. You can still see racial harmony today in the mosques of cosmopolitan cities. There you will find people of various colours worshipping together, all with equal status before God. Rich or poor, black or white, king or pauper all line up side by side to worship. No special consideration is given to anyone based on colour or social status. In many mosques the leader is black and the followers white. There is no such concept as a "black mosque" or "white mosque." Islam removes such destructive concepts.

1Allah is the name of God used by Arabic-Speaking Christians and Jews, and by Muslims of every language.

2May peace, and the blessings of Allah, be on His messengers Muhammad, Jesus, Moses and others.

Here is a short video with him debating a christian missionary named Mike Licona, the clip should give you a clear idea about where he stands regarding his faith and how he is as a debater....

As for the the topic of terrorism/jihad/sharia, here is another longer debate, it's well worth the time to sit through all of it if you genuinely do wanna have a greater understanding about those topic I did mention and how it correlates with Islam, unfortunately the christian missionary do hold an opinion about islam like many people that aren't well versed in the teachings of islam but you be the judge and see what you make out of it....

As for the misconception about the Quran and how people would be able to misquote it, well this is another youtube video that does more justice of explaining how this could happen.

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

@N3razzurri, I'm delighted by your contribution on this. I mean, there's so many things I've learned going through your lines and the videos you shared; and I do believe it's not only important to understand the question at hand, but the people and Religion that suffers because of a particular group of extremists.

However, I fear it's crucial to remind anyone going through this thread that it's far from being a Religious thread where we wonder or question the teachings of the Quran or anything of the kind or that of the Bible. I am a Christian and, unfortunately, do not know much about the Quran. But from the teachings of the Bible I can already tell you that God created mankind equal. So what I see here is different believes, yet, small similarities in the teachings. And that right there is probably the *key thing: equal.

Which leads us back to the real issue at hand: The fear of terrorists attacks is not only real, but is very high. And that on its own kinda creates panic in some's mind which leads them to be selective in their ''random'' security checks and so on. And through DerB's comments, one realizes how easy this whole thing comes down to Racism. And one should know racism doesn't only apply to the color of the skin (as many would think) but also to one's Religion, Believes, Teachings, etc....

Thanks for sharing this as I believe it's, perhaps, important to understand certain teachings in the Quran in regards to the issue at hand -- although I didn't see the point of the 1st video (and to some extent, the 2nd video as well) seeing how it wasn't really related to the issue we are trying to debate here -- and I, for one, am of those who believe a majority of Muslim is going through a certain ''Discrimination'' because a certain group of extremists took upon themselves the mission to taint their very own Religion by their extreme believes and failing day and night to realize the mistake of their ways.

So here's the question you didn't answer: What do you make of the ''alleged'' declarations made by Gillard? Do you see just cause in them? Would you abide by such decisions because you see the big picture, which is, to eradicate the extremists ''believers'' -- see what I did there? Wrote 'believers' rather than 'Muslims' because I reckon there aren't only extremists Muslims as some would have us believe. Lol

Dukeduke (Barcelona) 3 months ago

I'm just readin through all the posts and just thought it was a good thing to note that judaism, christianity and islam believe in one god who created everything. And furthermore they all trace their roots back to Abraham

DerBomba (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

Spot on Duke, it's never the religion that is bad, it's the person who carries out the condemned act that is the evil one

N3razzurri (Inter Milan) 3 months ago

I really can't comment on Gillard as I'm not that familiar with who she is or what her allegation are and it wouldn't be far of me to make assumptions about things I have no knowlegde about, as for @Dukeduke and @DerBomba, I find myself agreeing with them and I honestly do hold true to the statements made in the books of all of those religions, that each person will be held to account for his own actions, we might differ one how that will happen but one thing we all could agree on is that the final decision will be with G-d

AFGMADRIDISTA (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

I read the article and I've seen some people denied her saying this. I'll give my opinion assuming that she did in fact say all these things.

I'd like to start off by saying that, just like in many religions, Islam has many sects. Some that come to mind are the Shia, Sunni and the Wahhabi. Each sect might believe in the same Prophet and of course everyone from Islam, Christianity and Judaism believe in the same God (at least in me eyes) but each sect was also formed differently and may have some slightly different views regarding different matters. I am a Shia Muslim so my beliefs may differ to those of other Muslims. Just a warning before any of you feel I am offending you, making a wrong claim, or just anything one would not agree with. Everything I say will be from a Shia Perspective so please keep that in mind when reading my points.

Firstly, in Islam, by no means are you allowed to take another's life. That is for God and God alone. Man has no right to kill someone. There are exceptions and the exceptions are only if you are threatened and the LAST possible option is to kill the one who would otherwise take your life and even this exception has more to touch on. Another exception is to fight against oppression but that is detailed and would take much of my time to explain as well. However no one innocent should be harmed. So if you hear or see a supposed "Muslim" taking the life of another than like how the rest of my Shia brothers see things, don't consider them as Muslim. Example would be Al Qaeda and other terrorist movements/groups. They fight for some false "Jihad" when really what they are doing is 1. Sinning by killing 2. Sinning by committing suicide and 3. Sinning by causing oppression.

Like I said earlier there are different sects. You guys are probably going to wonder which one of these sects Al Qaeda or another terrorist movement falls under. If they even fall under ANY category of Muslims, I'd assume they follow the Wahhabi traditions. To other members of Islam, we see this sect of Muslims as radical extremists. In my opinion, I don't consider them Muslims at all because much of their beliefs contradict what is written in the Holy Quran.

Now regarding Gillard, I can say that it is hard to blame her for taking such actions especially since they are precautionary measures. Yes it may seem wrong and yes it can be seen as a form of extremism but, with all due respect to Gillard (I don't know her enough to make a judgement overall), she probably, like the majority of Western society, doesn't know any better. The West see's Islam from an outsiders perspective meaning that these impressions of Islam in general can change quite easily depending on what they hear from the media and how the media portray the religion. Ever since 9/11 the media has really taken drastic measures in making Islam look like a violent and oppressive religion and one example I often hear them use is the Hejab. They feel this is an oppression against women but really the women who wear their Hejabs because they WANT to do so because they see it as a source of freedom. I could explain this but it would take much time and I rather you guys ask me before I even go further into that. Another is terrorist bombings. Right away they blame Islam for it but with a lack of knowledge about what Islam says about such acts. So just like many Westerners, Gillard is a victim of deception. So one can't really blame her but instead one can even blame the the Muslims for this.

I have to say that it is our fault somewhat for what the world now thinks of us. We aren't being very productive in showing the world what our religion is really about; Peace and Justice. We have to stand for what we believe in and show the world why it is that we truly believe this religion. Every now and then, people who claim to be Muslims will contradict our beliefs and the media will see it as a perfect opportunity to play down our religion and deceive those who are not knowledgeable to question what the media portrays at times. Ex/ A while ago in Ontario, an Afghan father-mother-son had murdered I believe 3 Afghan girls. These girls were their own blood relatives (primary family). Why? Because they had boyfriends and did not accept the "Afghan culture" which in some ways did go against Islamic teachings as well. They killed in the name of honor and used Islam as their source for doing so. Not only did they contradict what Islam teaches us hence sinning, but at the same time they gave the world another reason to HATE us. In these kinds of situations our Muslims should stand up and explain to the world that what they did was not Islamic AT ALL. Only then can we start to make those understand that everything you hear about Islam is not always accurate.

But then again, how can we change the world as Muslims (showing people we are actually good people) if we are fighting each other? It's not as if everyone but Muslims are being oppressed and victimized through terror. In fact, Shia Muslims, face frequent attacks, much much more than what the Western world faces. We have our Mosques bombed, we have our people killed, and we have our rights taken, all because we are Shia. These are Muslims fighting Muslims.

The only way one can truly know Islam is if they read the Holy Quran. There, it explains everything that we follow. Otherwise it will be the same for the Westerners. They fear what they don't understand. Some are not willing to understand. To remove fear, one must attain the knowledge, to attain the knowledge one must read what Islam is truly about.

Sorry if I may have ranged off topic here but I thought I'd clear some things up.

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Thanks AFG for taking the time. I wouldn't speak for anyone but myself and from what I think I know, it's always been a question of ''interpreting the teachings''. And I seriously believe that it comes down to that: Understanding the meaning of those Holy Writings. And clearly, just like among Christians, the teachings are interpreted differently.

However, in regards to the real issue -- being fair to everyone based on the believe that we are all equal -- I think, rather than have those so called --''random'' checks--, everyone should be scrutinized when searched even if it appears to be people calling themselves Muslims that are behind those terrorist attacks.

Important: I don't question the teachings of the Quran for the simple fact that I haven't read it. But based on the Muslim friends I have, I believe their attitude towards Life, Society and its realities, is enough for me to accredited their belief to some extent. And now, that's where the problem, as far as I'm concerned, begins: Having to always ''randomly'' strip search every (or at least, most) Muslim's' when we are well aware they are some decent Muslims. I fear to always sound naive to some when I say this but I do understand the necessity in being prudent rather than not and regret it at the end. But heck, if we gonna' ''randomly'' search a few, what are the chances that we actually miss the one with the intentions of hurting the rest? So my idea here, just like DerB's, it's to strip search *everyone without a single exception rather than having the innocent feel the shame of the guilty

AFGMADRIDISTA (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

I'm not entirely against the strip/search/etc because after all it is a safety measure, especially since 9/11 didn't make anything better. I think that rather than randomly inspecting those that look suspicious or fit a stereotypical description or any description to that of a certain individual, they should inspect everyone. Basically what you and DerBomba feel.

I don't know if it's like this anywhere else but a lot of African Canadians get more "inspection" from authority figures here even when clearly there is nothing wrong. There are a lot of serious and wrongly made stereotypes here in Canada and even the cops conduct their "inspections" based on those stereotypes. Because of this, a lot of African Canadians have developed hatred towards certain authority figures like the cops and one would think the self fulfilling prophecy or something similar to that might occur. Since the cops are so intent on keeping an eye on African Canadians from getting into trouble, the suspicion and unjust means of doing things might promote the African Canadians to actually causing trouble. In summary, the cops might help create what they were originally supposed to prevent.

Same thing might happen with this issue?

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Interesting! Very interesting indeed that you reached to that question because while reading you I honestly felt it was leading me to the very same question. And you had it spot on regarding the ''stereotypes'' because I believe it's from there that starts the discrimination: one convinced himself of one thing and one thing only and starts acting out on it in what he/she would call the appropriate way while failing to realize that it's never that simple in the sense that there could be more to the Islamic teachings that what is shown by the extremist groups. And once we come to the understanding and agreement that there are indeed great Muslims who do not deserve the treatment they occasionally receive while others are being left out.

Jumping right to this issue with the African Canadians being victims of a ''special'' treatment, it's very well possible that despite having a person initially known to be an immigrant who's now a citizen is still regarded as different from the ''real'' Canadians (if you see what I mean). And this could be proven by the simple fact that they are tagged as ''African Canadians'' rather than ''Canadians'' plain and simple (the same goes for Americans).

Quick question: Do you honestly feel like we are all equal? I honestly don't and I believe that's the KEY thing. Feeling equal would have us live under the same rules and at the same time, eradicate stereotypes minds and discrimination as a whole.

Seems like we live in a world in which we have great Ideals but severe Realities. Haha lol

AFGMADRIDISTA (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

As a Muslim, I grew up thinking that everyone is of equal status. However, every day that becomes harder to believe with the way that society has shaped itself. All these stereotypes and discriminatory acts (whether they are intended or not) is socially constructed and even in multicultural countries like Canada it becomes harder to live with the way society has constructed itself.

In my eyes, I see everyone as an equal, of course with the exception of a few corrupt people. But my world view and that of the society in which I live in are two completely different things and I'm happy that I haven't let society completely change my world views either although you can't help but feel that they have altered your unconscious mind. It is definitely clear that the entire world does not see each other as equals. Otherwise like you said, everyone would be living in peace, with the same rules and rights and with the complete eradication of all stereotypes/discrimination/racism/etc.

However even those who say they believe in equality among humans can't help but think differently about different people from different ethnic backgrounds. Society has that way of effecting the minds of those who live in said society and this is thanks in large part to the media. I'll use myself as an example. I like to think of everyone as an equal but even when I'm thinking about certain people, as if in automatic thought response, I have a judgement on them before I get to know them. I said previously that I haven't let society completely take hold of my world views on different people but that is only because I give everyone a chance to show who they really are and not the person the media has made them out to be because of where they come from/originate.

You can understand how hard it is to abide by the teachings of our fathers because of the way society has shaped itself. Guess when you really think about it, one could say growing up here in the West (for non-white's) is not an easy thing

DerBomba (Real Madrid) 3 months ago

@AFG
I used to think everyone was equal in the past, but having lived in a number of countries and experiencing life as a working adult, I've come to realization. People are measured by their value to society, I. E. How much they can contribute to society, or say how much they earn. What you said about the social construct is pretty accurate as well, so basically, we have divisions in all parts of society. Race and Religion forms a part, and social status the other.

As for yourself AFG, do you not discriminate at times? I mean, most of us have some sort of prejudice against certain groups of people. For example, I may not discriminate based on race, religion or social status, I do see myself being prejudice against ex-convicts. Granted not all of them are bad, but when I first meet an ex-con I tend to be wary of him or her.

Anyhow, much of our current problems do stem from past generations. Think about it, for some racist people, who put the idea into their heads in the first place? It's a problem that has existed for centuries, so I'm pretty sure much of the prejudice has been translated into modern society. I tend to see this as a primitive ideology, so there that's my second prejudice, against racist people. Also, it's also part of the reason that made me despise the older generation. We are who we are because of our forefathers, yes, I agree. But whether or not we agree with them is an entirely different matter. If we could return in time to stop the first person who invented racism, could we be living in an entirely different world? Perhaps.

So zhud, my answer to your question is that ideally, we should be equals, but can we really be equals, I will say no. So spot on with the statement "Seems like we live in a world in which we have great Ideals but severe Realities"

MisterBloom (Chelsea) 3 months ago

I'll keep it civilized, but this is my opinion about this topic of discrimination.

The world is at war, and humanity will always be at war no matter what. In any war, there are scapegoats, people that are demonized and abused for no apparent reason.

I find it ironic how nations that are built on "democracy" have the guts to show such clear discrimination. But the reason for the widespread acceptability of these perspectives is propaganda. Propaganda fuels our misunderstandings of the world, it feeds us fear and forces us to be terrified of the unknown.

In my opinion, I believe that terrorist organizations are heavily influenced and reinforced by western governments and eastern governments for the sake of fear tactics. Business men and women own these religiously fueled terrorist cells that feed off of small minded and poor people who are often wrongfully educated and threatened into committing heinous actions. The poor, brainwashed, and fearful youth die for the sake of money. Terrorist organizations are nothing more than drug dealing, human trafficking, and profit producing power houses.

Yet, on the other hand, I can understand why nations would act defensive against these supposed dangers. I personally dislike any religious extremist, whether they denounce religion, or support religion. I believe that it is nothing more than a man made division that is meant to keep us apart. To put it simply, in a nation where people should not be pushing their faith on others, such activity should be denounced. If any group does so, then they should suffer the consequences. I mean, there are many nations that practice Shari'a law, and if you don't like the fact that Australia doesn't, then you have the freedom to leave.

Same goes for Canada, the States, the UK, and any other nation that is struggling to uphold a democratic status. If you don't like the nation for being a place where many people can coexist freely, then catch the next plane and get the hell out

Zhudayong (Barcelona) 3 months ago

Hahaha.... Can't believe am only reading this now. I loved every single things u've shared. I mean the way you denounce those terrorists groups ''may be'' refuted by some, but I see a very interesting pattern in your approach. And in the run of the same approach I'd say I fear we are very far from its end. And that in itself is a real shame.

Now when it comes to the measures taken to ensure the safety of the populations, is it really easy to fight those realities while being ''weak''? Weak in the sense a nation built on the grounds of democracy would have to consider their ideologies before making any decisions regarding their attempt to stop any terrorist incidents. With that in mind, I wonder if it's not important to have in mind the idea that says ''in order to fight evil, one may be forced to get to its level'' (if you see what I mean)

At the end of it all, I agree on the regrettable truth that in any ''war'' there are collateral damages. But with the idea that there are countries who discard the practice of Shari'a Laws, I'd completely agree with your conclusion: If the country you are in do not suit you or your believes, then perhaps you should consider leaving because at the end of the day, I doubt even in democracy *everyone gets what they want

N3razzurri (Inter Milan) 3 months ago

I agree with much, in fact if not all of what @MisterBloom wrote, well at least in the first part as for the second half that's where we differ and I do believe it's certainly permissible for a nation to act in its self interest for the better of its own people but that's only if they're genuinely threatened. I strongly disagree with the outcome of some of those actions that has taken place, we all should disagree with it and not simply pass it of as 'collateral damage', whatever might have been the core reason for most of those actions, they do not the least justify what the cost have been for those people affected by the decisions of few people and I believe they should shoulder much of the blame for the current trend of violence in the world, you'll have to ask yourself, as much as muslims are portrayed 'terrorists', an evil force that needs to be eradicated, how much of what is happening due to muslims involvements? Islam has been in existence since 1400 years, is it only now that it's been seen for what it is? Matter of fact Islam had to endure much prosecution and ill conduct from outside sources for longer than people do care to remember.

It's true some people will always be used as scapegoats, first it was the blacks then the jews, afterwards the communists and now muslims? And if we've learned anything from history is that we're often wise in retrospect, long after the dust had settled down and people are too late to speak out or do something about it. I'm surprised that you didn't draw lines between how people that would like to force their beliefs onto other people should be thrown out of the country, I'm assuming you mean muslims, are the same people that have their countries invaded by military and are forced to take up 'democracy' as their beliefs or as a way of living and lets not forget what happened to the aborigines or the native indians, what became of them? . In no way should any terrorist act be defended but how does what is happening in muslim countries justify for the action of those few people that decided to act upon their deluded interest? Who are the real terrorist, if you compare the death toll, which in itself is a repulsive act to do, who are the victims?

The ugly truth is even if you're entitled to hold true to those statement; how people should be kicked out of a country for not sharing the same opinion as the rest, had you been at the other end of the spectrum and still hold fast to those statements you would've been considered a 'terrorist' for not wanting democracy, @MisterBloom you say the world is at war? It says in the Quran that human beings will always be quarrelsome, and you're statement about 'people' shoving their religion down other peoples throat, well as far as I'm concerned Islam is the only religion in the world that gives you the freedom of choosing : "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)" and notice it says that Allah hears all and knows all things, so the purpose of forcing religion upon anyone would be self defeating and there is even a passage that the smaller muslim children learn to recite at a young age : Say, “O disbelievers, (1) I do not worship that which you worship, (2) Nor do you worship the One whom I worship. 1 (3) And neither I am going to worship that which you have worshipped, 2 (4) Nor will you worship the One whom I worship. (5) For you is your faith, and for me, my faith. ” 3 (6) (Qur'an 109)